lduncan Posted July 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 That's what I used to think. The confusion is caused by BB protagonists immediately equating a sand bed with a dirt laden badly managed DSB. I'm not proposing that. I'm thinking sand has pros and cons. If the cons can be managed & nutrient paramenters kept within acceptable limits, maybe it also benefits the tank in certain ways. To further explain, users of zeovit are meant to "pump" the zeovit rocks daily. When this is done, a cloud of bacterial mulm is released. Shortly thereafter, sps corals can be seen expanding their polyps to catch it. If I get lazy & don't pump them for a few days, corals visibly don't look as good & also go paler. I'm thinking this mulm may be pretty much the same as what can come out of a sandbed. I know you won't want to hear this, but i'll say it anyway. Maybe that's part of the problem, the Zeovit. It would be interesting to see what happens if you stopped dosing all those additives for a while and see the effects. Really it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that it bleaches corals, and then attempts to substitute for the lack of zooxanthellae by bacterial and chemical feeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted July 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 Produce some logical reasoning? Are you saying myself and others have not done that? Being polite, all I can say is you must be blind. Well I think some of it was incomplete. Some was just based on biased assumptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puttputt Posted July 3, 2006 Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 wishful thinking about a functional club, nothing else Wasp, I enjoy these little agruements :lol: reef, I never get to know when these clubs nights are?? Do you let everyone know, do you have to join ?? is it affiliated to Fnzas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted July 3, 2006 Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 In terms of having sand in a tank can it attract dirt thus keeping the water clean. Try it, stir your sand hard and overnight the water is clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted July 3, 2006 Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 Some was just based on biased assumptions. Anything useful to say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted July 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 In terms of having sand in a tank can it attract dirt thus keeping the water clean. They sure do, and that's why they are so good to start with. But they can't do this indefinitely, which is where the long term effects come into play. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted July 3, 2006 Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 No one will have there tank long enough to find out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted July 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 Some people don't. You don't know how long it will take to hit the first big cycle, and there is little warning. But still, it's just more bioload sitting in the tank competing for food, and consuming more resources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted July 3, 2006 Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 don't know how long it will take to hit the first big cycle, and there is little warning. But is that not the same with BB, there is also little warning of no nutrients in the tank so acros start to eat themselves. If a sand bottom tank was failing would you not notice it over a few weeks as acros start to lose colours. What benefits would Steve weaste and Iwans tank have if they had no sand? Can there tanks get better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie extreme Posted July 3, 2006 Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 Maybe that's part of the problem, the Zeovit. It would be interesting to see what happens if you stopped dosing all those additives for a while and see the effects. Really it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that it bleaches corals, that was part of my reason bringing Zeovit into it. i have to agree that algae can be a problem if one overfeeds and overdoses (iodine to gorw the xenia quicker :lol: ). but saying that the tank even with the bacteria from the rocks needs feeding or stirring up the sand bed. that works quite well. stoney growth has bee great as i produced well over 500 ++ frags in the last year and a half. do i do something wrong? my corals are growing and i have still alot more now then a while ago (better go and frag some more). all look healthy (well colour could be better (as always)) grow well with not a single die back or mortallity as others have reported on this site (and i have lots people coming over to vouch for it). i did loose some colour when i down graded my lighting but growth hasincreased (not a bad thing at all ). i just wonder how my zeovit tank would fare without the sand as extra food source (no zeo bashing please)because the Pohl's CV seems to work nicely. i really did consider removing the sand at one stage but everytime i stir my sand bed my corals just love it and as reef said the water is super clear later on (must be all the bacteria that got moved into the water column that clear the water so well (and at the same time generate a great food source for my corals) so what more can i hope for? less mortallity (got none), better growth (god no its already reaching the top), realistic looking coral growth (would say looks pretty good, no fruit stand here ) algae? hell yes but any algae (coral) reef has them because they are normal and natural. trying to fight them is fighting nature (and we all know who is gonna loose) as all that is needed is balance. so does a sand bed create balance? i would say yes as it generates a niche for certain animals to live and reproduce. seems good enough for me. will it be exactly what i want? hell no but then again i didn't create nature, i am just trying to make the best out of it. and it seem its working well. :bounce: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted July 3, 2006 Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 500 Frags!!! WOW!!! Wonder how some of those non zeovit bare bottomed tanks in the south island compare. Since zeovit causes so many problems, and sand is so bad, I'm picking they would be producing at least double, 1000 + , seeing they don't have the same handicaps as you, Cookie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted July 3, 2006 Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 Puttputt a well functioning marine club would be good :roll: :lol: They seem to meet occasionally but are not affilliated to the FNZAS sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted July 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 But is that not the same with BB, there is also little warning of no nutrients in the tank so acros start to eat themselves. With all the food that goes in every day? The skimmer will stop skimming before nutrients ever reach levels low enough to cause that. Nutrients are so tightly cycled that it's very difficult to ever get to the situation where you actually kill acros from lack of food. If a sand bottom tank was failing would you not notice it over a few weeks as acros start to lose colours. What benefits would Steve weaste and Iwans tank have if they had no sand? Can there tanks get better. The first signs are usually an increase in algae on the rocks, by the time that happens, it takes a long time to reverse that. What is most troublesome for acros and stonies in particular, is green boring algaes which kill them from the inside out. It's very difficult to stop or illuminate this once it sets in. Steve Weast has posted in at least one of the sand bed threads, and has stated that he keeps his sand clean by vacuuming, and continually replacing it, he doesn't run it like a dsb. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted July 3, 2006 Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 Steve Weast has posted in at least one of the sand bed threads, and has stated that he keeps his sand clean by vacuuming, and continually replacing it, he doesn't run it like a dsb.Layton Well that's some useful info Layton, the kind of thing I'm looking for. Of course, even Steve's opinion is still only one mans opinion, but nonetheless he gets good results, awesome results to be precise. That's what I've been thinking too, that a sandbed kept in such a way that nutrients don't get too high, but providing the benefits of sand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted July 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 Well that's how i'll be running sand in a tank. Spotlessly clean, because there is no absolutely no advantage in the alternative for corals or fish. The as far as corals and fish are concerned, there are not inherent benefits of having sand, it's purely aesthetic. Actually maybe there are a few fish which require sand. But there aren't that many, most we don't even see. (Garden eels, some gobies etc) Actuall I remember that a lot of people were concerned about mandarin fish when going BB, I have one myself, and it's just as fat as when I had sand in. So there are no shortage of pods around for it. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puttputt Posted July 3, 2006 Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 Caryl, it would be good. Seems to be a couple of opposing camps, and if your not in, your not in :lol: :lol: :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted July 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 Hopefully that edit function will be back soon. That last post of mine was a bit of an abortion. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fay Posted July 3, 2006 Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 Well that's how i'll be running sand in a tank. So you are going to add sand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted July 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 Not at the moment. I haven't got the existing tank setup for it to be as low maintenance as possible. I really can't be bothered to at the moment. But it's something i've thought about for when I upgrade (whenever that ends up happening, other priorities at the moment). How to make it as clean as possible with the minimum possible maintenance. But how ever I do it, it's going to be a lot more work than BB. It will be purely aesthetic, nothing more. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie extreme Posted July 3, 2006 Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 Hopefully that edit function will be back soon. That last post of mine was a bit of an abortion. why? one of your best post ever. sorry couldn't find a smily with the thumbs up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted July 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 grammatically and spelling :lol: : The as far as corals and fish are concerned, there are not inherent benefits of having sand, it's purely aesthetic. I've heard better engrish before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie extreme Posted July 3, 2006 Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 I've heard better engrish before. don't worry you'll pass for PR. will keep ya, u can stay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted July 3, 2006 Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 Actuall I remember that a lot of people were concerned about mandarin fish when going BB, I have one myself, and it's just as fat as when I had sand in. So there are no shortage of pods around for it I have one also, fat as. also a six line wrasse that rarely eats the food that is put in. Also a CB that has been there for about a month fat as. No shortage of food. i would be interested to no, how long your tanks have been running, whos bb vs sand? how often have you replaced the sand etc. My bb has been going 9 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted July 3, 2006 Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 Well that's interesting about the pods. I pulled a DSB to go BB, the tank did clean up over time, and all the pods disappeared. I just assumed it was normal for the pods to die when going BB. I'm wrong? Maybe some of you guys got more nutrients than you realised? As to the whose got sand or whatever question, my 3 current tanks are BB. The two that are not display tanks can stay BB, but if I could I would go sand in the display, unfortunately current is hard to get right in a small tank & at this stage there is too much in some areas to have sand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted July 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 Well there aren't anywhere near as many pods as before, but there's obviously still enough in my tank to support the mandarin, easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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