additives - what do you dose?

[puttputt]

layton,

Can't agree with you. I'm no expert on tuning reactors but had no issues since the day I started it. It is one of the things I put down as having made the biggest positive change to my tank.

Good steady calaium and alkalinity levels.

[suphew]

Can someone explain the idea behind vinager in the kalkwater? I have heard of it before but didnt want to try it until I knew what it was going to do.

[TM]

Good steady calaium and alkalinity levels.

I am looking after a friends tank at then moment, he uses a reactor the KH stays spot on, no change at all, sweet.

The ca is another story, it drops ever so slowly, say 420 - 410 - 400, maybe even less than that (say by 5).

Question is putt putt and others do your reactors maintain a constant and i mean constant level ?

[Sharkey]

When Calcium Hydroxide solution (Kalkwasser) is slowly dripped into your aquarium, it captures free Carbon Dioxide present in the tank water and converts it to Bicarbonate ions (which is a good thing), like this:

Ca++ + 2(OH-) + 2(CO2) <==> Ca++ + 2(HCO3-)

If you drip too fast or if there is not enough Carbon Dioxide available in the water, your shiny new Bicarbonate ions will be converted to Carbonate ions (a bad thing), like this:

Ca++ + 2(OH-) + 2(HCO3-) <==> Ca++ + 2(CO3--) + 2 H2O

The Carbonate ions formed will make the Ca++ you are trying to add to your tank get wasted by the useless precipitation of Calcium Carbonate -- the white stuff you are seeing.

So, too rapid addition of Kalk may actually cause the Calcium and Alkalinity in your tank to go DOWN instead of UP (a bad thing), like this:

Ca++ + 2(HCO3-) + Ca++ + 2(OH-) <==> 2 CaCO3 + 2 H2O

In the above reaction, a Calcium ion and two Bicarbonate ions from the aquarium combine to form solid calcium carbonate -- the white stuff you are getting in your tank, which is really just a kind of sand.

This can happen even with a slow drip of Kalk if there is not enough CO2 in your water -- something you can't easily control.

To avoid this, try mixing and adding your Kalkwasser like this: pour 15ml of 5% Acetic Acid (or ordinary Distilled White Vinegar from the grocery store -- same thing) into a 1 liter (1 quart) container. Dissolve 1/2 teaspoon of lab-grade Ca(OH)2 (or commercial Kalkwasser mix) in the Acetic Acid, and then dilute to 1 liter (1 quart) volume with either RO/DI water, or even tank water.

15 ml is more Vinegar than some people are comfortable with, but I use it constantly with no problems. There should be no sediment in the mixture, or just a little bit at most. You can let the sediment settle out if you don't like the white flakes in your tank. I just drip the liquid and the sediment both into my tank.

Dissolving the Kalk powder in the Vinegar first will accomplish several very good things.

First, it will get more Calcium ions (Ca++) into the solution because you are dissolving the Ca(OH)2 in an acid instead of water, and forming Calcium Acetate, which exists as a dissociated equilibrium of free Calcium ions and Acetate ions.

Second, the Acetic Acid (Vinegar) provides an equivalent of all the CO2 you need to avoid precipitating the newly-added Calcium ions as useless white Calcium Carbonate powder.

Third, after all the cool Calcium ion chemistry is over, the leftover Acetate ions from the broken-down Vinegar leaves you with free organic Carbon in the water that feeds the bacteria in your tank so that it converts more poisonous Nitrates to NO2 gas (a very good thing).

Adding Vinegar in Kalkwasser is one of the few win-win situations for reefers -- it has a great up side and I've yet to encounter a down side to doing it. I don't know why so few reefers do it -- lack of understanding of the chemistry behind it maybe -- but a lot more are starting now that some respected reef writers have discovered it and have recommended it and even written up detailed instructions for it.

[Sharkey]

KALKWASSER | IN DEPTH

(Posted with www.reefscapes.net and Breefcase's permission from works written in reefs.org)

[suphew]

far out, thats almost 3/4 of a liter of vinager per week in my top up?? Seems a lot?

[cookie extreme]

Topup with lime water, increasing concentration as demand grows. Once it is at full strength, use 2 part mix to keep levels up.

its not possible really to increase your calcium by using lime water only you are most likely only able to replace used calcium that way

Can someone explain the idea behind vinager in the kalkwater

you are able to disolve more calcium in your top up water (god knows why)

Very small amounts of Calcium chloride and Magnesium chloride every few months

same here and its not to much work at all

just started with seachem reef iodide

what are you trying to achive? algae? soft coral growth?

By the way...

baked baking soda gives you sodium carbonate which can raise ph to over 9. This can be dangerous.

Un-baked baking soda gives you sodium bicaronate which only raises ph to about 8.3

I dont bake mine!

i was thinking about that. if you need to add reasonably quantities of BS it might be worth while adding it at night as washing soda to keep PH up during the night in the same way as many other reefers use kalkwasser and incease your KH at the same time.

[wasp]

Sharkey, that was a very informative post! Well done!

I think Chimera should put that in his sticky it tells a person much of what they need to know in a way that is easy to understand. I knew vinegar was good, and a couple of the reasons, but did not know all that.

TM I'll agree with Layton on one point ( there's a first! :lol: ), using a calcium reactor is not an exact science.

The 2 adjustables are the amount of water going through the reactor ( drip rate ), and the amount of Co2 going through the reactor ( bubble count ). So to increase output, you can turn up say, bubble count, which will increase Co2, thereby making the water in the reactor more acid, dissolving more of the media, dispersing more calcium and alkalinity into the tank.

However, in one way a 2 part mix can be more precise, Layton is correct, the water can be tested, the amount to add to bring levels to the desired amount calculated, and then the mix added. Whereas with a calcium reactor it would be nigh impossible to test the water, and then calculate drip rate & bubble count needed to achieve the desired levels.

Instead, no calculations are needed. When first setting up a calcium reactor, often several weeks of fiddling are required. The tank water is tested, and if levels are too high, the reactor is turned down. If levels are too low, the reactor is turned up. This is what I did & have now hit a point where the input is about right, the reactor has not been touched for quite a while. But as others have said, the balance between ca and alk can move over time, so for me anyway, I test the tank water once a week, and I have a stock of both calcium and baking soda, I will add one, or the other, if needed. But recently levels have stayed rock solid in the tank, I have not had to add ca or alk for some time. But commonly, it will happen.

I have ended up with a spare reactor since closing my fragging system, so have put it in tandem with the other one, the second one is performing the function of a degasser. With this setup, I am only using around 1/2 the Co2 I used before to achieve the same results, and it is also quite powerful, I have to keep it turned well down or it will boost levels way too high. The strange thing is, it is also using less media than before. I have yet to figure the reason for that one. But PuttPutt is also correct, many people find their reactors will only just keep up with demand.

One thing I like about reactors is that levels in the tank stay relatively constant, as opposed to dosing, say once daily, although of course continous dosing can eliminate this but may cost more than a reactor. The other thing is ease of use, mine is pretty much set & forget now, just test weekly to check things are in line, and perhaps from time to time some minor adjustment may be required.

[puttputt]

TM,

a calcium reactor will not raise your levels of calcium just maintain, Yes my calcium slowly drops. When my acros weren't growing much it didn't but now there reasonable growth, it drops maybe 10-20ppm a month. Alkalinity stays between 9-10 and Mg drops maybe 10ppm a month (another lot of Mg dolomite in the reactor would keep it steady i'm sure).

My Reactor does require me to adjust the drip rate every few days, tends to clog the tube a bit, but would not be without it now.

[TM]

TM,

a calcium reactor will not raise your levels of calcium just maintain

cheers, but if the reactor is spose to maintain a level why does it drop? KH stays stable mg sweet, just Ca.

[puttputt]

reactors vary to suit your tank size and calcium usage.

A bigger/better reactor would maintain my calcium levels.

The reactor I have is rated to 1000l, a bit under what I have.

This means a smalltop up every few months, so i'm happy with that and can't justify a bigger calcium reactor.

[TM]

with a larger reactor you could put a larger amount of tank water and co2 thu, this would give you more kh ca etc, would it not

[reef]

It is a myth that a bigger calcium reactor will maintain a tank to degree.

If you are adding the same amount of co2 then it will exit about the same kh. No matter what size it is, but depend what reactor you have. Most use a slow exit reactor.

Having a bigger reactor means you don’t have to fill it up so often.

I have to find the article that explains it. It’s been some time that I read it

.

[cracker]

I have to say as an arogant Swearing Removed.. Mod Bill., that Kalkwasser is the biggest load of garbage ever to be invented for a reef tank.

I cant think of anything more awkward and fiddly.

Kalkwasser is like a 1973 holden kingswood.

GET WITH THE PLAY!!

Its time for the 2006, 6 litre injected chevvy.

[cracker]

This should start a few fires!!

[reef]

Better put the post back on track.

Additives added.

Every two weeks, biodigest, bioptum. reef booster.

twice week, reef roids or reef booster.

Weekly, strontium, iodine, trace elements,reef solution.

Daily, concentrated amino acids from reef star. 20 drops.

[wasp]

Ha Ha!

Kalk can be as easy or hard as a person wants to make it.

For me it was a bit of a pain, I had to fill the container each evening, put it above the tank & set the drip rate.

But it can be easier. Randy Holmes Farley uses kalk, he claims it takes all of 5 minutes per month. He has a drum downstairs which once a month gets filled with fresh water, kalk added, and stirred. The it settles 24 hours, and then a dosing pump on a timer delivers a set quantity to his tank each night. The drum contains enough to ensure he only has to refill & mix the kalk once a month, which he claims 5 minutes, literally.

[cracker]

Sorry Bill... :-?

Mod Note:

It's the site and the users that are effected.. not me.

I'm just one of the ones trying to keep the site a nice place to be for everyone.

[KP]

I cant think of anything more awkward and fiddly.

How is it any different from the two part system.

Instead of adding a teaspoon of Calcium Chloride to water, you add Calcium Hydroxide. Dump this in a reservoir and it will dose throughout the week.

Then at the end of the week if the limewater didn't keep up, add a small amount of the two part system.

[cracker]

you have to do two things instead of one thing.

You just said it!

[puttputt]

Deltec make 5 different sizes of calcium reactors for tanks that range from to 120g to 1300g. Everyone is bigger than the last, holds more media. Presumably as they get bigger the hold more water, can input more CO2 to drive the PH down and allow more Ca to dissolve into the water.

Are you telling me Reef that if i put an emormous deltec reactor on my tank, it wouldn't keep up with my Calcium demands.???

Re read my posts, i said bigger/better.

[reef]

Presumably as they get bigger the hold more water, can input more CO2 to drive the PH down and allow more Ca to dissolve into the water.

When you put co2 in the reactor it can only only dissolve so much media and like calcium chloride you can only put so much calcium in a bucket before it falls out. I guess a reactor would work the same way.

As mentioned it also depend what type of reactor you have.

Can more water be put in a bigger reactor?? No really as if you look at all the reactors they have the same fittings so more water going in is not an option.

Can you get more c02 in a bigger rector? No as too much co2 then the reactor will stop working as it will force the water out.

Reactors efficiency can be increased by either adding more co2 or increasing the flow. You could also add some pure calcium chips. However the kh is the most important part of the reactor as good KH levels gives good growth.

Another thing about a reactor is that it is only as good as the media you put in. some media is good and some not so good, also having larger calcium chips is better as you get better flow in a reactor so you get better contact time. Bigger reactors have bigger pumps so you get good circulation.

Reactors efficiency can also be increased by running it longer or all night.

So to some degree a bigger reactor is not better based on the article and my experience using many reactors.

[puttputt]

undertsand that but what about this question:

"Are you telling me Reef that if i put an emormous deltec reactor on my tank, it wouldn't keep up with my Calcium demands.???"

is not, then can cross that off my wish list.

[reef]

Look at the type of reactor you are using now and compare the design with a Deltec.

Deltec fluidise the media so you get better contact time. More water can be put through the reactor so more c02 can also be input.

[chimera]

well i'd have to say this is perhaps one of the more interesting topics we've had of recent :lol: at least im learning something here

My Reactor does require me to adjust the drip rate every few days, tends to clog the tube a bit, but would not be without it now

tell me about it, PITA. that is one serious disadvantage to a CR and effectively defeats the purpose of trying to maintain consistant levels. the issue i have is that i cant adjust the drip rate to one a second, it essentially stops after a while. if i set about 2 drips a second, it continues fine and never gets blocked. i could possibly force feed the inlet to keep it under constant pressure but i dont believe i should need to do a 'workaround' to maintain that consistancy. stupid thing.

Are you telling me Reef that if i put an emormous deltec reactor on my tank, it wouldn't keep up with my Calcium demands.???"

dont they sell larger reactors simply because they can hold more media thus last longer? essentially the drip rate would remain about the same, bubble rate perhaps increased because there is more media. i thought that was the only difference.