Interesting link

[wasp]

Just thought this was interesting, even down to how to frag galaxea.

Here is the link

http://www.reefs.org/library/farmertodd/

[KP]

What types of macroalgae are beneficial and available here?

[lduncan]

What types are beneficial? Well for they types of animals almost everyone keeps, none.

What's available? There are a few, which probably shouldn't be named on a public forum. They are illegal, and some are highly invasive.

Layton

[cracker]

The main types are caulerpa species, some of which are invasive.

There are non invasive species available here and are available easily.

The main reason IMO for using caulerpa is when nitrates and Phosphate levels are at inappropriate levels.

I am using macroalgae at present to assist with remov ing briopsis. I have nearly achieved this and will disconyinue use following this.

Continual use for macroalgae is neglible and IMO not necessary but can be used for temp measures. They certainly do pull out nutrients when present.

[KP]

Wouldn't a natural source of nutrient removal be good and take a load off the live rock and skimmer? What about plants like mangroves?

What plant type stuff should be kept in the refugium?

[ghostface]

mangroves wont grow fast enough to perform any significant nutrient export. may be interesting to grow some though, i think wasp had one a while back.

[petplanet]

There is the number one use for them. A great food source for Tangs.

[lduncan]

Here are some things to think about:

First is the issue of how much and what waste they actually remove, then what form that waste needs to be in to be used by them.

Also consider the conditions they need to grow, and absorb these nutrient. If they're not growing, they are not taking up nutrients.

They require a dirty environment (relative to the conditions you're trying to achieve) to grow. So while you're trying to create a low nutrient environment by growing stuff which requires a dirty environment.

Finally, these are living organisms, and as such they produce waste. What effect does this have on the animals you are keeping.

There are often pitfalls of using living things (whether plants or animals) to reduce nutrients.

Layton

[wasp]

Here's a little thing about macro algae and refugiums. Better than housing the macro algae in the main tank.

The caulerpa mentioned in the article are available here.

http://www.3reef.com/refugiums.shtml

[wasp]

Should have added that although still widely used overseas, macro algae refugiums are not quite as essential as they once were, with the advance in skimmer technology, and other nutrient control practices and methods.

[TM]

Wasp you forgot the main reason.

[wasp]

True

Just considering the sensitivities of others who may be lurking :lol:

[lduncan]

You mean the fact that one of the pioneers and biggest promoter of the turf scrubber "natural" filtration couldn't get it to work successfully on several high profile public aquariums including the GBR aquarium?

[wasp]

No

[TM]

You mean the fact that one of the pioneers and biggest promoter of the turf scrubber "natural" filtration couldn't get it to work successfully on several high profile public aquariums including the GBR aquarium?

maybee

[cookie extreme]

it should still not just be cast aside using algae systems. especially for lagoon set ups that include catalaphyllia, gonioporas and similar (corals that do pretty poorly these days, and which i had no problem keeping, growing and multiplying in an old setup years ago that had huge amounts of caulerpa, HA and other algae growth). it seems that certain corals need the enviourment. also algae would release "nutrients" back into the water that may be needed / utelised by some corals. one should remember that coral reefs are actually algae reefs but due to the massive amounts of herbvores are grazed upon all the time so that many algae are visible to the eye. in most SPS tanks nowadays one doesn't see any algae and i wonder if this is a good thing?

[lduncan]

You bring up a good point.

Sure some types of corals can tolerate those conditions. However I guess the question is do these corals thrive because of the algae, or in spite of it?

Is it just convenience that the conditions required to keep some algae going are the same which provide something that these types of corals need to do well?

As for releasing substances back. Algae leak DOC, some species up to 10% of their biomass (Spotte). They can produce significant quantities phenols and alkaliods. Especially the caulerpa species of macro algaes. These compounds are generally not good, some are just outright toxic.

As for coral reefs being algae reefs, remember there are a lot of different types of algae; Phyto, zooxanthellae, macros, micros, corallines, etc. So that sure there may be a lot of algae on a reef, however again, are the corals there living happily side by side with the algae, or are they there in spite of the algae?

(The algae I've been referring to are the typical macro algaes you see in the hobby)

Layton

[wasp]

maybee

Guess I should clear up, I answered no to Laytons question because that was not what I meant, I was not even thinking of turf scrubbers I was thinking of refugiums.

It has been generally accepted for many years now by most, including Layton, that turf scrubbers are not very effective. Macro algae refugiums however IMO can still be very useful. There is debate over the toxin release argument, but managed properly with only one species of m algae so they are not trying to kill each other, there is little / no harmfull effect. Alternatively, a completely non toxic algae such as chaetomorpha could be used.

Bear in mind also that most of what we keep in our tanks release toxins, this is not confined to algae, and is the reason we use carbon.

As for me, I don't use m algae, simply because the nutrient levels in my tank are too low to support it. I have had it pre zeovit, but it died when nutrient levels went too low for it.

[Drifty]

I use micro algae, still worked fine when I had .02 phosphate and 0 nitrates

[lduncan]

Yip, cause 0.02 ppm phosphate is high for these animals. And that's just the phosphate you can measure, there are other forms, and sources other than the water column for nutrients.

Layton

[puttputt]

Does any one have chaetomorpha??, as i'd like to use it in my refugium. I have a some macro algae in my reef, (escaped from my ref) slowing getting rid of it (tangs), no hair or micro though, I have a little Halimeda, but i like it and think it looks great.

Phos and nitrate are undetectable on my test kits. Presumably being used up, or skimmed out before breaking down.

[wasp]

I had a big search for some chaetomorpha in the days when I had a refugium, but could not locate any in NZ. Pretty much every common form of caulerpa is available here though.

From what I could gather, the importation of chaetomorpha is illegal, so it would be a case of trying to get some when it is brought in accidentally. There is a chaetomorpha that grows around the coast of NZ, but it is not the same one generally used in refugiums.

However, for me, a macro algae refugium is no longer required, or possible. As Layton has said Quote "They require a dirty environment (relative to the conditions you're trying to achieve) to grow. So while you're trying to create a low nutrient environment by growing stuff which requires a dirty environment." And my environement is not dirty enough, although I am not sure I fully agree with Layton it has to be a dirty environement, they can IMO grow in fairly low nutrient environements, as others have stated.

But I do miss my refugium, there are other advantages that come with a refugium in the form of the many small life forms that live and breed in it, and get released into the tank & feed the corals. I have seen some lovely tanks where the owner has attributed the very healthy livestock to the natural feeding they get from the refugium.

[puttputt]

I agree wasp, the life in my ref is amazing, and alot of this is transfered to the tank. I don't get good algae growth. It grows in spurts, then starts to go off, and I remove it. Running out of nutrients I guess.

My ref is also the only place now with sand, which also promotes organisms that live in it. Its not a DSB, only 40mm or so but I don't disturb it.

[Fay]

Is the red stuff I have in my cube tank caulerpa?

Bottom left corner

[wasp]

Yes, you have the very attractive, but slowish growing, red caulerpa.

Looks like it's getting munched on though!