chimera Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Is it easy enough to just list out what one should be doing under different levels of Mg, Ca and Alk? If one is high and one is low or visa versa? Or is there too many other variables involved that its just not that easy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 There are several variables involved, the x product to x water = x increase type formulas are very useful, but in practise other things have an effect as well. IMO use the formulas as a guide, but also just dose as required and test, then dose again if need be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Most important thing is to dose only one element and then test the next day as sometimes they take a day to rise after adding. It is not important if calcium is 400ppm or 430ppm. There is no magic number for me. I don’t really care if my magnesium is 1100ppm vs the 1250ppm target. Really can’t see how 125ppm is going to make a big difference. Also if you don’t have your tank at full strength seawater then you can aim for lower parameters. The key is stability. I can see why hobbyist are having problems as they add a bit of this then a bit of that. All adds up to ionic imbalance. I aim for Calcium 380-430pp Magnesium 1100-1300ppm Kh 7-9 Nitrate under 10ppm Po4 under .05. Salinty 1.024-1.026 In terms of po4 I can never get it to .01. Just is imposable. But acros are still very well coloured.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Good common sense levels, good post. Agreed. Especially on the phosphate, 0.05 or under will give good colours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slappers Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted March 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 The key is stability. I can see why hobbyist are having problems as they add a bit of this then a bit of that. All adds up to ionic imbalance. Couldnt agree more, I gathered there is no absolute magical number for anything - more a "safe range" for each parameter is most important and maintaining within that range with as little deviance is crucial. Since I work with computers, everything is alot more logical. 1 + y + z = 3, where y and z both = 1, or 0 and 2. This is always the case with computer logic. Scientific logic is so different, 1 + y + z = 3 is not always the case. The result maybe 3 if y and z are both 1, but if y is 2 and z is 0, the result maybe 4!!! One parameter can alter the outcome so easily. I aim for Calcium 380-430pp Magnesium 1100-1300ppm Kh 7-9 Nitrate under 10ppm Po4 under .05. Salinty 1.024-1.026 This is what I aim for too, however when, in my case, kH is so low to increase it is not that simple because it alters Ca,... and Ca is effected by Mg,... etc etc. In terms of po4 I can never get it to .01. Just is imposable. But acros are still very well coloured Just shows acro's still need some form of phosphates to survive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkey Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Mon night: Mg 1050 (added 1 cup of Mg) kH 5.2 (added 3 heaped tblspoons baking soda diluted in 1 liter water) Ca 380 (increased bubble rate from 1 every 2-3 seconds to 1 per second) Tues night: Mg 1110 (added 1.5 cups of Mg) kH 6.2 (added another 3 heaped tblspoons baking soda diluted in 1 litre water) Ca 380 (nothing) Remember it not recommended to add a alk supplement( baking soda )and Mg at the same time The Mg will enhance the lose of carbonate alkalinity. that what I read. And I see they write a warning on the bottom of the Seachem Mg packets looking at your reading you almost have them right With the common ranges being 4 meq/L or 7 - 11 dKH or 125 - 200 ppm CaCO3 equivalents Calcium: 380 – 450 ppm calcium ion or 950 - 1125 ppm CaCO3 equivalents I don't know if you have read the 100 marbles explanation on Calcium and alkalinity its like having 100 marbles say blue and red what ever you do you will only have 100 marbles put more blue ones in you will get less red in other words increase you Ca you will lose you Alk add more Alk you will lose Ca that's the way it works basically Good to see the tank back on target. It made me double check mine and i found my Alk was getting lower than expected Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted March 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 To continue on with the tests, I did another tonight (previous nights posted again to show changes) Mon night: Mg 1050 (added 1 cup of Mg) kH 5.2 (added 3 heaped tblspoons baking soda diluted in 1 liter water) Ca 380 (increased bubble rate from 1 every 2-3 seconds to 1 per second) Tues night: Mg 1110 (added 1.5 cups of Mg) kH 6.2 (added another 3 heaped tblspoons baking soda diluted in 1 litre water) Ca 380 (nothing) Weds night: Mg 1170 (added 1.5 cups of Mg) kH 6.7 Ca 370 The addition of Mg tonight should push it up to the mid 1200's. Once there, I'll add a bit more baking soda and then test kH. Hopefully this weekend I should also get in a decent water change. I don't see how adding Mg and Alk at the same time could be bad? Considering both are always in the system anyway? Can anyone elaborate on Sharkey's comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Cool! Levels coming right! Suprising how much Mg you have to add to get levels up isn't it! This is because there is 3 x as much of it in seawater than there is calcium. Sharkey is correct you should not add Mg and Alk together. In fact they can precipitate each other out. This process is going on slowly in the tank all the time, but if you add them at the same time and there is a meeting of them in concentrated solution there can be a very fast precipitation. Mg and Ca can be added at the same time, or even mixed together if you wish, but alk, ( or baking soda ) which will take either one of them out, should not be added at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted March 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Sharkey is correct you should not add Mg and Alk together. In fact they can precipitate each other out. This process is going on slowly in the tank all the time, but if you add them at the same time and there is a meeting of them in concentrated solution there can be a very fast precipitation. so what is defined as "the same time". i dissolve mg in some water and add it. wait a couple of minutes then do the same with baking soda? is that considered "the same time?" how long should i wait? with the amount of water movement throughout my system i'd say it would mix in pretty damn quick!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted March 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 More tests (again showing previous nights to show changes) Mon night: Mg 1050 (added 1 cup of Mg) kH 5.2 (added 3 heaped tblspoons baking soda diluted in 1 liter water) Ca 380 (increased bubble rate from 1 every 2-3 seconds to 1 per second) Tues night: Mg 1110 (added 1.5 cups of Mg) kH 6.2 (added another 3 heaped tblspoons baking soda diluted in 1 litre water) Ca 380 (nothing) Weds night: Mg 1170 (added 1.5 cups of Mg) kH 6.7 (nothing) Ca 370 (nothing) Thurs night: Mg 1200 (added 1.5 cups Mg) kH 6.1 (nothing) Ca 350 (nothing) So Mag is now good but both kH and Mg have dropped. I havent done anything with either of these in the last 2 nights! It is clear I need to sort out my calcium reactor, the CO2 bubble rate is too slow or the effluent drip rate is too fast. However why would kH drop again? Surely it can't be "used up" that quickly? I havent dosed anything for alk or calcium because Im planning on a water change tomorrow night. I'll test again after the water change, probably around 20% is all I can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeBlog Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 My Alk dropped pretty damn fast when the C02 ran out of my reactor. In a couple days it went from ~8.5 to ~6.5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted March 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 just went and checked the reactor,... bloody effluent was not dripping coz it was clogged. co2 was the same. unblocked it and reset bubble count to 1 a second. will have to test again tomorrow night Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 I had a power cut on Tuesday morning and didn't notice I had lost the syphon feed to my reactor until last night. My KH dropped to around 5 and CA to around 300 in two days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 What is the same time? Good question I doubt there is a definitive answer. Just out of interest back when I used a 2 part additive I switched to dosing them with a 2 channel dosing pump, the one pump dosed both at the same time, but they dripped in very slowly, alk to one end of the tank, and ca to the other. I positioned them so they dripped into high flow, and ( in theory ) would be well mixed by the time they met. However the amount I had to use increased heaps, it must have been precipitation. I eventually abondoned this method. On RC they often recommend dosing one in the morning, one in the evening. I've tried 1/2 hour apart and this has seemed to work. Layton could probably explain better if he's around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted March 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Update Mon night: Mg 1050 (added 1 cup of Mg) kH 5.2 (added 3 heaped tblspoons baking soda diluted in 1 liter water) Ca 380 (increased bubble rate from 1 every 2-3 seconds to 1 per second) Tues night: Mg 1110 (added 1.5 cups of Mg) kH 6.2 (added another 3 heaped tblspoons baking soda diluted in 1 litre water) Ca 380 (nothing) Weds night: Mg 1170 (added 1.5 cups of Mg) kH 6.7 (nothing) Ca 370 (nothing) Thurs night: Mg 1200 (added 1.5 cups Mg) kH 6.1 (nothing) Ca 350 (nothing) Fri night: Stablised reactor bubble rate at 1 per sec, drip rate 1 per second 15% water change (tested 5 hours later) Mg 1140 (nothing) kH 6.4 (added 3 heaped tblspoons baking soda diluted in 1 liter water) Ca 370 (nothing) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Coming along nicely! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted March 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 4:24am???!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slappers Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 the misses booted him out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossco Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 He must get booted out quite often cause he quite often posts in the wee hours! But so do a lot of fishy folk...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted March 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 they usually take the computer too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie extreme Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 bet ya he sits with his torch in front of his tank to watch the "night life" :bounce: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossco Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Talking chemistry again... I was using kalkwasser but it seemed to 'spike' my pH higher (as you would expect) but it seemed to stay that way too much. Hovering around 8.4 - 8.5 (or higher perhaps at times) made me a bit nervous to keep on using it so went back to the old add calcium and carbonate separately routine. For the kalk I dripped solution overnight and rechecked the right amount. Even only used a litre of solution for a 400 litre tank. Calcium around 420 and dkh 8. Any comments what was happening and recommendations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 looks all good, dont worry about the ph. it will drop to normal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossco Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Is a .2 to .3 spike in pH okay? Shall I start using Kalk again? Is this to be expected when using Kalk? Will pH keep increasing if I keep using kalk and 'pickle' the inhabitants too much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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