Pies Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 You forget that if the sandbed is doing that, then it MUST be storing phosphate. It can't do it without storing phosphate. Yes it can, and it does. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Because I like the magical properties of the sand Pie Ha Ha I know that was a dig. I was going to say wait for the bite, but the bite's already happened!! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warick hearn Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 I rake my sand bed every few days....stops any buildup and keeps the sand moveing.......No need to vacume it at water changes...in the sea on a reef the sand is constantly moving with tides.....I love the different ways the sand moves around constantly changing ......and my wrasse helps.....he's always grabbing big mouthfulls of sand sifting through it looking for food...my (berlin) protein skimmer also LOVES it when I rake my sand.....lol....If we could get crabs and other critters to burrow down and clean our sand beds we would ALL be a lot happier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Then as the bed fills up, accumulating phosphate as it goes, the sub oxic layer move closer and closer to the surface of the bed, and it starts to leak phosphate back into the water column. But of course before this happens, it plays havoc with the rock. The rock absorbs the crap it's sitting in, that's were you can get algae problems with seemingly perfect water parameters, and mysterious sps coral deaths, caused by boring algaes. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 If we could get crabs and other critters to burrow down and clean our sand beds we would ALL be a lot happier. Crabs and other critters produce waste too. So all they end up doing is removing a tiny bit, and transforming the rest into another form of crap. And what happens when they die? It all gets dumped back into the sand bed anyway. The sea also cycles phosphate in the same way sand beds in our tank do; storage, followed by release. It's the source of photo nutrients in upwellings from the sea floor. Of course there is a lot of water in the ocean, and not a lot of sediment. The only way to fully deal with waste in the sand bed is to physically remove it, by vacuuming or other similar means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Then as the bed fills up, accumulating phosphate as it goes, the sub oxic layer move closer and closer to the surface of the bed, and it starts to leak phosphate back into the water column so would that mean that once the phosphates are fully leached from the sand and consumed (by LR , fluidised or skimmed or whatever) that no more phosphate can be leached? or is it a continual cycle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 It's cyclic. When the suboxic layer comes closer to the surface it reaches a point where bacteria dieoff reducing oxygen demand allowing it to re-oxygenate again and the storage release cycle continues. A number of other elements, such as iron and sulfur are involved in the binding and release of phosphorous in sediment too. Good oxygen conditions within the sediment increases the Feox pool, which is able to retain either phosphate or hydrogen sulphide (through a reaction forming ferrous sulphide; FeS – see Eq. 2). On the other hand, poor oxygen conditions cause the pool of oxidised iron to grow gradually smaller. As the Feox concentration decreases, phosphate is released from the sediment to the water column. In the “typical†estuary the flux of PO43- is insignificant in spring, autumn and winter. Significant PO43- release from the sediment to the water column is seen only in June, July and August. This period coincides with NH4+ release to the water column, and, as described above, the release of PO43- is caused by poor oxygen conditions within the sediment that stimulate hydrogen sulphide production, so to speak, leading to increased consumption of oxidised iron. It's an extremely well recognised cycle. Just not by some of the "experts" in this hobby however. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 It's an extremely well recognised cycle. Just not by some of the "experts" in this hobby however. hahahahahaha Thats right, I forgot, your always right, anyone who disagrees with you is an "expert" as opposed to an expert. I am not an expert, or an 'expert' but I know what works and what doesn't. All the theory in the world can't deny the outstanding results than are achieved by having the sand bed. If you need examples check out www.reefcentral.com or www.ultimatereef.com there is more than 1 or 2. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Can't you see that the same process that makes tanks which run dsb's successful, is the exact same one which is responsible for people whos tanks are plagued with algae and "mysterious" coral death. It the nutrient cycling in the sand bed which is responsible for BOTH of these. And it's something you have very limited control over. As for examples of tanks which prove that DSB's work; This tank here runs a DSB. Does this picture prove that DSB's don't work? Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 My own preference for my tank is no sand, this is because I am too lazy to keep a sand bed clean. However having sand in the tank does not mean the tank is doomed to eventually die a gruesome death. The evidence simply does not support that. It's about husbandry, some examples - Aged Salt, the Zeovit.com guru, has had a DSB for 11 years now and his tank is pristine. The Reef Central tanks of the month, arguably a collection of some of the worlds best tanks, nearly all have sand. A local Reefer I know, dumped a big load of 2nd hand sand into his tank, this was followed by an outbreak of cyano and algae. However by following a strict regime of good husbandry he has been able to restore the tank to clean & pristine. Having said all that IMO a person having sand should have a good understanding of the processes involved and a maintenance plan, or trouble might ( or might not ) eventually be on the horizon. But the above examples are cases where a sand bed is run intelligently & causes no problems. I believe what happens in an estuary, does not translate exactly into what happens in an aquarium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 yeah! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 So Pies, what happens in YOUR sand bed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 In my sand bed? Its a regular party down there. Badness goes in, gets converted into goodness, and the cycle continues. I perscribe to a live sand bed however, so it doesn't get vacumed or disturbed, hence the reason its so clean. Its working well for me. I do have problems in my sump though, I can't keep up with the algae (macro/calurpa) growth, and its preventing me from growing corals in there with any real success. So I am in the process of completely stripping this tank (DSB included). Will I add sand back in? At this stage unlikley, but havn't made the decision final yet. I want to make major changes to the tank and rockwork upstairs, so I need somewhere safe for the corals upstairs, which means I want no calurpa or anything competing for light etc. Sand bed upstairs will remain as-is, or I may add more depending on the aesthetics after the rockwork moves. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Another example of a well run sand bed. But don't chuck the macro algae. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 In my sand bed? Its a regular party down there. Badness goes in, gets converted into goodness, and the cycle continues. Pie So you have no idea? No specifics? Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Another example of a well run sand bed. But don't chuck the macro algae. So how do you run a sand be well? Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 So you have no idea Layton A rather bold statement, and not supported by the evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 A rather bold statement, and not supported by the evidence. I see you conveniently deleted the question mark in your misquoting of what I wrote. It was NOT a statement, it was a question. Followed by another question. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 So you have no idea? No specifics? Heh. Thats right, I am running blind and hoping for the best because I have no idea what I am doing... OR I can't be bothered getting into a zillion post arguement that will always 'end' the same way. You decide. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Well the fact is is that sediments cycle phosphate. Either you are correct and the "badness goes in, gets converted into goodness, and the cycle continues", OR the scientist who have established long ago that phosphate (the worst of the "badness") just gets stored and released, and doesn't come out as "goodness" are right. You decide. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 I see you have chosen the zillion post arguement route. Just because you say its a fact doesn't make it so. Simply put, if there was truth in what you say then people would'nt choose to use sandbeds, and thats just it, its a choice. Its a fact that if I jump off a high rise building I will serious hurt or kill myself, this is a fact, its a choice I make (to not jump, well not yet) because I know for sure what the outcome will be. Or is that proof, I get confused easily. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Plus bottom line is there are some very nice tanks that have run sand for years. No amount of argument will change that, it's about husbandry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Simply put, if there was truth in what you say then people would'nt choose to use sandbeds, and thats just it, its a choice. Pie I see you've chosen to disagree with establish scientific proof of what they do. That doesn't stop sand beds from doing what they have done, and will continue to do for years. Simply put, if they did what you say they do, then the world would be a VERY different place today. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Yeah but there's still some very successful tanks with sand. Most of them in fact. Talking about science don't change that fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 science and reality almost never go together science is also full of theories even though proven (saying layton maybe right) dont always effect the outcome 100% of the time (saying you can still have a good tank with a sand bed) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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