malawi_man Posted December 29, 2005 Report Share Posted December 29, 2005 I have a 7 foot 800litre African cichlids tank. At the moment i have for filtration one eheim 2215 - meant to do 400litre tank, also has a pondmaster UV steriliser on the output. I also have two fluval 404's meant for a 400litre tank also. At the moment there are about 15 fish in there, maybe a few more but i am soon getting about 60 more (all adults) So i was wondering with the increased bioload will i need more filtration(sump) I know you are meant to drill the tank for an overflow but there isn't really any chance of that because the tank is already up and running and i aren't going to empty it in any hurry. Is there some way to do a sump system without drilling for the overflow?? I have room for maybe a 3 foot tank under there. Can anyone explain to me how a sump works and how you get the overflow running the same as the flow of the return pump?? thanx for any help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freshwest Posted December 29, 2005 Report Share Posted December 29, 2005 Hi Krib .Drilling is best, but you can also use an overflow box. I made a couple and they work fine cheep to make to. Google DIY overflow box should get plenty of hits. I made mine from a couple of Tupperware containers. I will post some pics of what I have made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malawi_man Posted December 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2005 kool thanks for that will do a google and see what i can find :bounce: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freshwest Posted December 30, 2005 Report Share Posted December 30, 2005 Here are some pics of my DIY overflow. The key points to remember when building one is to make sure your out flow pipe is large enough to handle your pumps in flow and you put a check valve at the top of the U bend. The check valve stops air bubbles from forming in the U bend, which would stop the siphon. Here is a pic of my Fronts that are in that tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiuh Posted December 31, 2005 Report Share Posted December 31, 2005 can you show us a picture of the sump and how it is return back up to the tank? cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilo Posted January 1, 2006 Report Share Posted January 1, 2006 Happy New Year, The following is a schematic of my tanks system that has been operating for 3 years now without a problem. It is only a 3 foot tank but how it works will be the same for a larger one, only difference would be the size of the equipment and tubes etc. The overflow works very well during the numerous powercuts we get here. I have yet to have the sump over flow or drain. A breather tube in the top of the U pipe is handy but not necessary if you used a curved pipe. Before the system is first turned on the inlet and outlet containers are filled with water then a small air tube can be threaded to the top of the U pipe and any air sucked out. I have only had to do this once when the system was first turned on since the inlet and outlet containers stay fill no matter what the water level. Most important though is the height of the exit tube in the outlet container - it must be higher then the U pipe ends! A minimum of 4 cm is a save bet. The system can be noisey but by having a tap on this exit tube (below the outlet container) the speed the water exits the outlet container can be adusted to avoid any vortex and air being sucked down. The inlet container is made from 6mm ply coated with epoxy. Outlet is a long tupperware container. All the other equipment came from the gardening and plumbing sections of a hardware store. One other tip, When the pumps are turned off the spray bar will start syphoning the water back down into the sump. By putting a small hole in the spray bar just below water level air will be let in when the tank drains below the hole and thus break the syphon. I don't see the point in drilling a tank when the overflow system works so well. Hope this gives you some ideas. Cheers Grant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiuh Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 thanks!!...thats a very informative diagram shilo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malawi_man Posted January 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 wow!! you have frontosas kool!! thanks for the diagrams and pictures guys i might try your idea freshwest, is it easy to keep that water at the right level?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malawi_man Posted January 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 what do you use for seperating the different medias?? it would need to be something that doesn't bend much and has big holes like 10mm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilo Posted January 13, 2006 Report Share Posted January 13, 2006 No separation of the media. Infact in the filters "real" state its all mixed up together. I used pumice, 5mm long peices of drinking straws, and some of those horrible $$$ ceramic noodles. If I was to start over again I would just use straws - cheap, never clog and good water flow. The filter is made from ply coated with epoxy (glass front) and a shelf was made at its base to hold a tupperware container. This container is drilled with many small holes to let out the water but keep in the media. Same for the drip plate. You don't want 10mm holes but hundreds of 2mm holes to help spread the water over the media surface. If you are making an extra large W/D filter then perspex or some other acrylic is ideal. Cheers Grant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feelers Posted January 13, 2006 Report Share Posted January 13, 2006 i might try your idea freshwest, is it easy to keep that water at the right level?? Thats what's so good about overflows - they will automaticially be at the correct level. , the only place in the whole system where the water level will change (due to evapouration) will be in the return pump section. Check out http://www.melevsreef.com/ ......... there is a good explanation of sumps and overflows, along with popular sump designs, and ideas about how to design your own sump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanksman Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Thats what's so good about overflows - they will automaticially be at the correct level. Provided that the overflow pipe can cope with the pump volume otherwise lookout below Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malawi_man Posted February 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 ok here are some pics of the sump tank i have made, will probably go and get the plumbing tomorrow, what size plumbing do you think i would need i'm thinking 35mm?? what are your thoughts. I have made an inside overflow box out of glass also, would it be ok to just drop the level of the tank dry the surface and just silicone it on to the inside of the tank?? i will only put silicone around the edges so i can easily remove with a razor blade or similar. What type of media is best? i was thinking the first third being sponges/filterwool going from coarse to fine, then some sort of ceramics, the plastic bio media (maybe chopped up straws??) then pH buffer (aragonite) and carbon maybe for water clarity?? let me know what you guys think. i hope i am on the right track lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilo Posted February 9, 2006 Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 The sump looks great! How many litres is it? You want it big enough so that if there is a power cut the water draining into the sump will not overflow it. This can be controled by the height and size of the syphon break hole in the spray bar I refered to above. Not sure what size pipe to use on a 800ltr tank but if you search the saltwater forum in this site I remember formulas etc for pipe size being discussed. It all depends on the amount of flow needed. Remember the U bend on the overflow must be larger then the other pipes for safety reasons. The internal overflow box normally has slots cut into the top for the water to flow through without fish being sucked into it as well. You would think they would line up for a free hydroslide ride, but believe me they don't look to good after being in the drip tray for a few days! The depth of these slots and the size and height of the box determine the water level of the tank. I found it handy to have this box "clamped' onto the side of the tank so I can adjust the water level if needed. What sort of filter are you going to use? The pics look like a Wet/Dry is planned. If this is the case then you will need a drip tray. With my set up I use a coarse sponge on top of some thin filterwool inside the drip tray itself to stop any large debris clogging up the pores of the rest of the media. This only needs washing out once a month or so (but I do it with the weekly water change anyway). The filter wool doesn't interfer with the drip tray at all. A pre filter in the down pipe will also work, but if it clogs up then the tank will overflow. Cheers Grant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WEKA Posted February 9, 2006 Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 I have made a drip plate out of one of those tank fish separating sheets of polycarb or whatever. It has heaps of very small holes. I placed my foam on top of it to filter out anything big enough to block the holes. The plate is about 400 x 300 and easily handles the full return of approx 5000lhr. I have Bio-Bale in the wet/dry underneath and get a very good distribution of water thru the media with that drip plate. Have a look at Bio-Bale on goggle it looks good. Tank not operational yet so this is all still a bit experimental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malawi_man Posted February 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 the sump is approx 150 litres can you explain the syphon break hole?? i am doing the same overflow box as freshwest has done but with glass. i will go with the 35mm plumbing for the overflow but i will have a ball valve so that i can reduce the amount of water flow down the pipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanksman Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 The syphon break hole needs to be located in the return line from your submersible. It needs to be close to the water surface. When you have a power cut water will syphon out of the tank and back down into the sump through the submersible pump. If the syphon break hole is not present it will overflow your sump. As you have a spray bar setup in your diagram it will only "backsyphon" until the waterlevel drops to the first hole from the top in the spray bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freshwest Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Are you putting a valve on the outflow? The flow out will be the same as your flow in so there is no need to have a valve any were in the system. If your flow rate is to high you should use a smaller sub/pump, put a valve after the pump, or use a bigger diameter outflow pipe You don’t wont to put any restrictions on the outflow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanksman Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 I think that is supposed to say you don't want any restriction on your intake. Having restrictions like a ball valve on your return line is fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malawi_man Posted February 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 i got the glass drilled for the overflow box today, i have some 32mm plumbing for the overflow only needs to go about 1m lol, i was thinking a ball valve on the overflow pipe so i can stop the flow down wheen i clean/change media. hopefully will set it up in another 4-5days without media and just with a temporary pump is about 2000lph enough?? otherwise i will get a 3300lph pond pump. i will get some pics of the overflow box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freshwest Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Sorry for the confusion. When I said outflow I mean from the overflow box not the pump. Restrictions going into the tank ok. Restrictions out of the overflow box not ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilo Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 i was thinking a ball valve on the overflow pipe so i can stop the flow down wheen i clean/change media. Don't. Having a ball valve on the pump to tank pipes will only make the pump work hard when the valve is off, maybe a risk of pump burnout or something bursting. Turning off a ball valve on the overflow to sump pipe will mean the pump will cause the tank to overflow. Just turn the pump off for filter maintenance. The tank will drain into the sump until syphon break level then all flow will stop. Much easier then mucking about with valves. You can use a ball valve under the overflow (for overflow to sump pipe) to fine tune the overflow stand pipe and stop any gurgling, but experiment with it to get the right level then don't touch it again. If it is closed even slightly to much the tank level will slowly rise and overflow (can take a few days). Cheers Grant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malawi_man Posted February 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 it will be open at all times other than cleaning and i will turn the pump off at the same time - no water flow at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanksman Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Good idea to have the valve so you can stop the drips when you want to clean it. I still reckon you are all very brave - I wouldn't be able to go out for months if I had 3300lph pumping through a box hanging on the side of the tank. A drilled tank is the permanent solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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