reeftec Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 thanx wasp dsb has been in there since day1 fish & inverts blue tang/yellow tang/ green coris wrasse/cardinal bangai/male madarin/2x high fin banded gobie with shrimp 2x fireshrimps,3x peppermint/2 emrald crabs/100+ nassarius/20 cerith/50astrea/50 redbanded margarita/3 lipstick conch& 1 zebra conch 6 clams 3x small maximas ,2 corceas & 1 squamosa also some coco worms featherdusters,etc corals 90% sps alveopora(has been growing well for the past year0 hellofungia short tenacle orange fungia allien eye chalice pink with green eyes chalice blue w yellow eye chalice red/green w green eyes leptoseris explanata (rare plating sps) 4 tube anemone pink green purple red sun coral plating blue photosynthetic sponge my most favorite open brain a few bright color zoo colonies pseudopterogrgia bipinnata as far as sps those photos are a few weeks old i have taken some colonies out since to frag & trade & maybe start a couple of other colonies however various montiporas,scrolcup,stags,pocillopora,seriatopora,stylo,various acros vallidia,gomezi,tort,tables,milliopora,nanna,etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostface Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 pics please :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkey Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 First I would like to say Amazing tank reeftec. It is a truly beautiful tank. Congratulations on the hard work and planning that you have put in. As you can see from our posts filtration is an area of hot debate. I guess its the same world wide? I have a couple of questions that I would like to ask. Here in New Zealand I would say zeovit has a good following but it hasn't become mainstream. How big is it over there? I guess you would get a lot of questions about the DSB. With a lot of zeovit tanks being BB. Do you find any advantage or disadvange with it? PS Any reply on the comments made about DSBs and Zeovit? based on personal experience. As you can see on the previous page there is a lot of misinformed or maybe over informed? Information about Zeovit and DSB Once again thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatix Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 very nice tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted November 25, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 Well now I've had time to digest all that it's an incredibly well thought out and designed system. No wonder everything looks so good. Also great to see this measure of success in only a 4 foot tank. Heckuva lot of lighting also, do you attribute that with the great colors you have? Why halides on only 7 hours per day? The DSB looks very clean for 2 years old, despite your reasonable bioload. Do you vacuum it or anything? Or just leave it completely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie extreme Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 i know that i wear contact lenses. but where do you guys see a pic of his tank. i can't find any link or photo's. if they are posted i must be really blind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 as i was thinking Ronald Shimek's view on dsb's, all for them (although its 4 year old info): http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 as i was thinking Ronald Shimek's view on dsb's, all for them (although its 4 year old info): http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm You would be all for them too, if you could sell books on them (notice the large advertisement on the top of that linked page), and charge people $175 USD to find out how to run one. He was the one who said that running one is as easy as falling off a log, but now it appears that it's not quite as simple as he use to think. Even the university where he was an Affiliate Associate Professor for a while disagrees with him: http://www.montana.edu/ecology/courses/ ... phorus.doc The evidence is overwhelmingly conclusive on how sand beds work. And it is VERY different from that which Dr Ron portrays. I don't care whether you use one or not. But you should probably know what they are REALLY doing. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 You would be all for them too, if you could sell books on them (notice the large advertisement on the top of that linked page), and charge people $175 USD to find out how to run one. clutching at straws. i found all the information i needed in that online article without the need to buy his or any book for that matter. i found the article interesting, and while im not interested in a DSB, one thing i did realise is i need some finer sand in the display - i think thats one reason i find very few animals in the sand bed it's too coarse for them. The evidence is overwhelmingly conclusive on how sand beds work. And it is VERY different from that which Dr Ron portrays. I don't care whether you use one or not. But you should probably know what they are REALLY doing perhaps we should take all the sandbeds out of the ocean then JUST INCASE something goes wrong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reeftec Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 well as i said before i am no expert neither i am an advocate for any method of reefkeeping,i like dsb,bb ,etc,... they all have thier pros & cons what i did i tried to combine asmany different methods of nutrient export that i could come up with ,I ALSO LIKE TO CLARIFY THIS THAT I AM NOT USING ZEOVIT,i have had very good growth & reasonable color as you can see all those pix were taken under 10k lighting however i just recieved my zeo package i am going to try it to see the difference for myself i am not looking forward to 100%improvement overnight,10% in 6 months is amazing as far as it comes to living ocean creatures. i have tried different methods before for example dosing vodka,to feed the bacteria(in some ways similliar to zeovit i think),it worked great for me,i was dosing on & off for 6 months,meanwhile a few other people i know had a crash dosing vodka & were blaming it on sand bed & the fact that does not work with this method,personaly i think difference was that i started dosing @.1 ml/100 gal & went up .1 /day ,but they started @ 3ml for the same volume not realizing what a bacteria bloom of that magnitude can do i tried heavy feeding for a while up to 10 cc of oyster eggs/3ml of cyclo/selcon per night /every night you be amazed how much feeding our tanks can take i posted a few pix on erics forum on rc when i was trying to keep dendrophyllia,diodogorgia nodulifera & also acalycigorgia in AN SPS TANK THAT IS of course 20% weekly w/c & other task envolved but i had them growing for 3 months before donating them to our local aquarium i never vacume the sand bed i think the key is to export as much as you can ,no dead spots in the tank,alot of sand critters like 100= nassarious snails,etc they do the job also covering most of the sand surface with rock not a good thing, personaly i didnot pile up i used big pieces of rock to use as a wall & false roof effect result of that is one big cave across the tank with a few opening & maximum sand surface rather than pilling 100lb all the way to back glass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 as you can see all those pix were taken under 10k lighting what pics??!!! gotta link? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 perhaps we should take all the sandbeds out of the ocean then JUST INCASE something goes wrong... :roll: You still don't get it. Rather than reading Dr Rons rubbish, read some of the stuff I posted. I've yet to find any information which agrees with him on how DSB's work. Sand beds in nature are cycling nutrients just like they do in tanks. Where does phyto get it's nutrients from in the ocean to grow... sediments releasing nutrients. "Nutrient upwellings" may be a familiar term, it's sediments releasing nutrients. Red tides, Florida blackwater events, lake and harbour eutrophication. Are all natural events which are due to sediments, which have initially been sinking nutrients, starting to release them. It's a big cycle, phyto blooms fed by nutrients leaking from sediment, it then dies along with other animals, they sink to the bottom where bacteria store and hold the nutrients within the sediment until the suboxic zone rises closer to the sediment water interface, and it starts leaking nutrients and the cycle repeats. from http://www.icsu-scope.org/downloadpubs/ ... ter18.html Ten billion tons of particulate organic matter are suspended in the world oceans and are constantly sinking towards the sea bottom. The annual input of organic matter to the bottom is five to ten billion tons, i.e., of the same magnitude as the entire pool size. Most of this is deposited in relatively shallow water, on the continental shelves, and only little in the deep sea. The sedimented organic matter represents a small fraction of the total primary production of the ocean, and yet, over a time range of 10 to 100,000 years, it plays an important role in controlling the chemical composition of the sea-water. Two main functions can be recognized for the marine sediments in the global cycling of the elements. First, they are a site of oxidation and mineralization of organic matter that is produced in the photic surface layers of the ocean. The particulate organic matter is concentrated 10,000100,000 fold in the sediment relative to the sea-water, and consequently the sediments support an intensive biogeochemical activity. The oxidation of the organic matter leads to a regeneration of the nutrients, which can then be recycled into the sea-water. Eutrophication: http://lepo.it.da.ut.ee/~olli/eutr/html ... k_100.html From http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extens ... /phos.html Phosphorus in freshwater and marine systems exists in either a particulate phase or a dissolved phase. Particulate matter includes living and dead plankton, precipitates of phosphorus, phosphorus adsorbed to particulates, and amorphous phosphorus. The dissolved phase includes inorganic phosphorus (generally in the soluble orthophosphate form), organic phosphorus excreted by organisms, and macromolecular colloidal phosphorus. The organic and inorganic particulate and soluble forms of phosphorus undergo continuous transformations. The dissolved phosphorus (usually as orthophosphate) is assimilated by phytoplankton and altered to organic phosphorus. The phytoplankton are then ingested by detritivores or zooplankton. Over half of the organic phosphorus taken up by zooplankton is excreted as inorganic P. Continuing the cycle, the inorganic P is rapidly assimilated by phytoplankton (Smith, 1990; Holtan et al., 1988). Lakes and reservoir sediments serve as phosphorus sinks. Phosphorus-containing particles settle to the substrate and are rapidly covered by sediment. Continuous accumulation of sediment will leave some phosphorus too deep within the substrate to be reintroduced to the water column. Thus, some phosphorus is removed permanently from biocirculation (Smith, 1990; Holtan et al., 1988). A portion of the phosphorus in the substrate may be reintroduced to the water column. Phosphorus stored in the uppermost layers of the bottom sediments of lakes and reservoirs is subject to bioturbation by benthic invertebrates and chemical transformations by water chemistry changes. For example, the reducing conditions of a hypolimnion often experienced during the summer months may stimulate the release of phosphorus from the benthos. Recycling of phosphorus often stimulates blooms of phytoplankton. Because of this phenomenon, a reduction in phosphorus loading may not be effective in reducing algal blooms for a number of years (Maki et al., 1983). It's all there, it's what sand does in nature, and what it does in our tanks. The information which supports this is endless. ... the information which supports Dr Ron's view point is well... non existent as yet. Also reeftec, don't take any of this as a personal attack on you or your tank. It is not. Just trying to clarify misconceptions some people have on what sand beds do. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reeftec Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 i tried to post some pix from tank & equipment i was only allowed 3 pix how can i post more pix for you guys? layton i have to say i agree with you when you say if someone pushing a certain method too much they might be selling something also i have read all those thread also many other experiements with the saturation of phosphate 7 sulfor base compounds in sand beds,heck there was even that worry after the hurricane katrina in the middle of neworlean city that flood water not moving going anerobic & what is gonna happen pummping the stuff back inthe ocean,etc...... there has been many research in florida about this but then again many problems there since 50s poluting the nature,death of algae ,algal bloom,the scientist there seen it all now they are observing reefswide bleaching,rtn,stn,etc,etc something new everyday however noone has not set up 10 different tanks with the same bioload same para,same condition ,aquaescape,etc,etc,trying different things in there,with & without sandbeds to see what are THE LONG TERM EFFECTS IN A MANMADE GLASS SYSTEM NOT COMPARABLE TO OCEAN IN ANY WAY in your defense layton ,yes if you have a dsb poor husbandry,not enough light or flow feeding,etc,etc,your tank is gonna crash & that sand bed will start to become a problem also keep in mind no system wether manmade or natural is not 100% selfsustainable,100% they all have a natural life expextancy ,i do,so does the fish earth & my dsb bottom lline you can booze up every day with lowered lifeexpec. or exercise & eat right,etc etc same thing goes if you don't have anyother way of nutrient export,no w/c,heavy bioload,not properly set dsb will crash sooner than one with those means yes all dsbs will eventualy crash depending on the circumstances,so will all the bb tanks if you take an old rock out of your tank break it it is quiet nasty in the middle & eventualy starts putting stuff back in water again timeframe is a factor of the envoirment you created in that tank nothing is for ever now getting that out of the way maybe you agree with me that as far as dsb is alive & tank is alive & taken care of, the funa &planktonic life,etc comming from dsb is benefitial to your creatures ( again if treated properly) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 well said reeftec, thats the one thing i could see layton didnt get from his postings - they are all scientific evidence on a global scale. we have a small closed system that will never FULLY replicate nature (as much as we wish it could) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reeftec Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 no offence taken layton as i said i am no advocate for anymethod,i find advocating closes possible future advancement because of closemindedness , so believe me i did read your post ,also that there is quiet a bit that dr shimek has said in the past that i don't agree with nevertheless he is a pioneer in the field & has contributed a fair bit whether his theories are going to be disaproved tommorow or not he deserves more respect now i have to ask you something would you be kind enough to explain to me howcome you are so certain of dsb effects ,it is just that i find you have a very strong front on this issue is that based on personal experiements & trail or what is your experience in this,did you have a dsb crash on you ,howmany have you seen crash(i have seen a few)& what was the tank specs,etc... please share your experiences with us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 however noone has not set up 10 different tanks with the same bioload same para,same condition ,aquaescape,etc,etc,trying different things in there,with & without sandbeds to see what are THE LONG TERM EFFECTS IN A MANMADE GLASS SYSTEM NOT COMPARABLE TO OCEAN IN ANY WAY I thought this was too good to pass up: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showt ... ost5699764 The same processes which go on in the ocean, also go on in tanks. So this is comparable. Timeframes may be different though. in your defense layton ,yes if you have a dsb poor husbandry,not enough light or flow feeding,etc,etc,your tank is gonna crash & that sand bed will start to become a problem No, poor husbandry will just make it cycle nutrients faster. Chimera, tell me exactly which part of the process which occurs in nature doesn't occur in tanks? Have you even read any of the links posted? Do you understand the overview of what is going on? Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reeftec Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 i am personaly a fan of bomer myself he has abeautiful tank,what he says makes sense,however again we are talking about reefkeeping in a glass tank not the ocean if you look at my previous post you see i made arefrence about simmilar situation with katrina however i asked you 2 queations that you didnot answer 1-do you agree with me that as far as sand bed is alive & working the fauna &the planktonic life comming from the dsb & its nutrient reduction is beneficial to your system& also how quick the dsb will crash has a lot to do with what you do in that tank 2- what is your personal experience with this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 Chimera, tell me exactly which part of the process which occurs in nature doesn't occur in tanks? since when did i say "process"? "we have a small closed system that will never FULLY replicate nature (as much as we wish it could)" composition of seawater, biological filtration etc but probably most important: rate of and frequency of "up and down" changes in our tanks (compared to stability in the ocean) everything in our systems are tried to be "simulated" as close to nature as possible (streams for water movement, skimmers for filtration, halides for lighting etc) but do they exactly match? no of course not. so how many millions if not billions of years has it taken for corals to adapt to their conditions? and when a major event in history takes place, how long does it take them to fully adapt again? not that we wish to wait a billion years for our corals to do well - but all im saying is DSB's are just another tool for us to use to assist in breakdown of nutrients, to feed the tank and help us maintain a tank for the short life span (in comparison to nature) in our hobby. we dont expect it to replicate nature, but as with all other tools we have it at least closely simulates it. other than that, give it a couple of years and DSB's will be the in thing again. seems to me even the "pro's" like to have their favourites - and perhaps ron did several years ago too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 i'll delete this post - meant in humour but a little overboard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 actually layton, i like this quote from the last guy on the reefcentral page you quoted above. But a DSB does work. It does what it is suppose to do. You can't base working or not working on the fact that at some point in time you have to replace it. You have to replace your vaccum bag does that mean your vaccum doesn't work. You have to change your oil, does that mean the oil did not work. No they just did there job and need to be periodically replaced. i know you're not saying that DSB doesnt work layton - its the changing the full vacuum bag or servicing the oil filter part thats the point. i think there are two types of people in reef keeping. 1. those that work on experience and logic. if its worked for others, then theres a chance it will work for me. if it doesnt work, lets move onto plan B. 2. those that work on scientific evidence. if scientifically it doesnt map out, then it wont work. no way i'll try it unless the formula says it will. and sometimes theres a few that sit in between Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted November 25, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 Chimera and Cookie Extreme. The pics of Reeftecs tank are linked in the first post in this thread and I've put one here. No doubt there are more to come once he's got the how to sorted. Layton. I'm dissapointed that after I invite this guy here he is immediately drawn into one of your never ending arguments. Yes I know you feel you have a point but we've all heard it. I was hoping Reeftec could be welcomed and discuss his interesting tank in a friendly and supportive manner, not get beaten over the head with your sandbed bashing fixation. Anyhow, the guy has pics like this. Seems like he's doing something right. What and who is to argue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 Layton. I'm dissapointed that after I invite this guy here he is immediately drawn into one of your never ending arguments. Yes I know you feel you have a point but we've all heard it. I was hoping Reeftec could be welcomed and discuss his interesting tank in a friendly and supportive manner, not get beaten over the head with your sandbed bashing fixation. Sorry wasp, i'll remember next time to run all my post past you so that you can censor them. Why did you post a post subject like "It CAN be done. Pretty SPS tank with DSB" and not expect discussion on it? So Chimera, how do you know when a DSB is full? What problems can a full DSB display? All the DSB tanks I have seen, including reeftec's one, are consistent with all the scientific evidence posted. 1. those that work on experience and logic. if its worked for others, then theres a chance it will work for me. if it doesnt work, lets move onto plan B What if someone told you how Plan A works, and that while in the beginning it could be beneficial, after a period of time it starts causing frustrating problems? Would you skip plan A and go to something more predictable and long term? Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 I have searched for a sand bed crash and have found nothing on it. Who says sand beds crash...prove it to me Layton. Sand beds dont do shit if you look after them. Exactly the same about people going on about adding chlorides to the tank.... No proof of any issues...ANYEWHERE. The ocean is Sodium Clhoride for gods sake. Going to be a bit hard to build up chlorides when the whole bloody ocean Is chloride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 I have searched for a sand bed crash and have found nothing on it. You haven't looked very hard, it's all here in this thread. All you have to do is take a little time and read some of the links I posted. Who says sand beds crash...prove it to me Layton. What's your definition of crash? It's all there in those links, they CYCLE NUTRIENTS, it's the release cycle (eutrophication) which creates an environment which promotes problem algae growth, and conditions which are, to some types of corals, lethal. Other corals could care less that nutrients are cycled, and all you have to contend with is problem algae. I don't have to prove anything to you. These people have done all the work: http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/2-vt10 ... =15#109090 Funny how people don't ask Dr Ron for proof of what he says. People just believe him, because they assume he knows what he's talking about. But there are lot of scientist which disagree with him, haven't seen one yet who does, as well as anecdotal evidence. Sand beds dont do shit if you look after them. Doesn't yours perform de-nitrification? How do you look after them? What do you have to do to them? How do you stop them cycling nutrients? Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 Im not going to bother looking at all those links. Can you just provide the few that directly apply to sand bed crah possibilities. also....if you are so against them, your tank must be a fine piece. why dont you ever supply pics for us to see? Are you all words? I hear you lost fish not so long ago also.......was this due to not QT ing properly which you should have known about also..... LAYTON, you cant just negative, negative, negative everything and everybody when you like, especially when you dont supply pics and also make mistakes like the rest of us sometimes. Generally I enjoy reading your threads because they are inforMATIVE AND INTERESTING and I have learned from you along with others. I also see you have agreed with myself in the past along with others. Sand beds are fine and I will prove this to you. Other reefers have had sand beds for 10 years and more with no issues, simply because of correct husbandry teqhniques. BB tanks are #$@*& ugly...... You dont see glass on the bottom af a fiji reef. YUK! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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