wasp Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 Here are 3 shots, all the same tank http://zeovit.com/forums/attachment.php ... mentid=588 http://zeovit.com/forums/attachment.php ... mentid=584 http://zeovit.com/forums/attachment.php ... mentid=591 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 It's an reasonable nice looking tank. (just needs a bit of black tape across the bottom to hide that ugly sand bed profile ) They still work the same way as they always have though, cycling nutrients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianemone Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 nice tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 WOW! What a surprise a nice looking SPS tank and a DSB!!! And I was told it couldn't be done... Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 Ive seen a lot of tanks. Ones with sand have brighter/deeper colours with their SPS stonies. Zeovit makes Acro's colours look weak. IMO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 WOW! What a surprise a nice looking SPS tank and a DSB!!! And I was told it couldn't be done... It won't last forever, sooner or later problems will occur, just like in all those public aquariums which failed. Sure it's good when it's in a absorption mode, but when it kicks into leak mode, the problems start, slowly but surely. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 They need to be stirred on a 4 - 6 weekly basis IMO. Thats what I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 Stirring a sand bed is bad though isn't it? It disturbs the oxygen gradients (which is what causes them to leak eventually), which would stop any denitrification which may be going on, turning the bed oxic. There have been numerous people who have tried to make sand beds stop what they do (cycling nutrients) with all sorts of methods, some successfull, others not even close. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeBlog Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 Wow, that is a very nice SPS tank (regardless of what substrate is implemented). Wasp, is it stated in the thread how old it is with that sand bed and what his/her maintenance routine is? As for personal preference, I do agree with Layton that the thick band of sand across the bottom is an eyesore. If I were to set up a DSB tank, I would certainly have that hidden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kermit Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 Must be smoko time hey the forum traffics picked up . As Steve asked is there any info on this tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 Stirring a sand bed is bad though isn't it? It disturbs the oxygen gradients (which is what causes them to leak eventually), which would stop any denitrification which may be going on, turning the bed oxic. There have been numerous people who have tried to make sand beds stop what they do (cycling nutrients) with all sorts of methods, some successfull, others not even close. Layton No, stirring the bed removes craploads of detritus, Mainly harmless into the water column which is then thrown down the overflow. It also removes oxic areas allowing them to build up again. (Air bubble release whilst stirring). This process also feeds the corals as small microplankton is in this "dirty water column" for a short time and has obviously got lots of little greebly's now floating around. Feeding time once every 6 odd weeks. (In fact I can see my Chromis eating the stuff when I do it). Too much stirring can cause the opposite, in fact RTN if done too often. (Not sure why), probably continual dirty water flowing over them all the time. I run a sponge filter prior to stirring to remove the big particles prior to skimming the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 No, stirring the bed removes craploads of detritus, Mainly harmless into the water column which is then thrown down the overflow. It's anything but "harmless". It also removes oxic areas allowing them to build up again. (Air bubble release whilst stirring). Look up the definition of oxic. What you've said doesn't make sense. Also those bubbles aren't air. This process also feeds the corals as small microplankton is in this "dirty water column" for a short time and has obviously got lots of little greebly's now floating around. It feeds a lot of stuff, not just corals. Feeding time once every 6 odd weeks. (In fact I can see my Chromis eating the stuff when I do it). Too much stirring can cause the opposite, in fact RTN if done too often. (Not sure why), probably continual dirty water flowing over them all the time. I would have though the more often the better. After all the cleaner the bed, the fewer problems it will cause? This is the reason I posted info on sand beds. It's not to abuse people who use them, it's so people know how they actually work, and what they are actually doing. Because there is a lot of absolute rubbish spouted by "experts" in the hobby circles. You just have to look at the evidence in nature, as well as the hundreds and hundreds of scientist which have studied these environments, who all come to the same conclusion on what they do. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted November 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 It's an reasonable nice looking tank. ROTFL!!! Layton you are a hoot :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted November 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 Wow, that is a very nice SPS tank (regardless of what substrate is implemented). Thanks for the honesty Wasp, is it stated in the thread how old it is with that sand bed and what his/her maintenance routine is? The particular thread I got the pics from is here http://zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4396 Does not have much info in this thread but if you wish you could research Reeftech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie extreme Posted November 24, 2005 Report Share Posted November 24, 2005 It's anything but "harmless". Look up the definition of oxic. What you've said doesn't make sense. Also those bubbles aren't air. It feeds a lot of stuff, not just corals. I would have though the more often the better. After all the cleaner the bed, the fewer problems it will cause? This is the reason I posted info on sand beds. It's not to abuse people who use them, it's so people know how they actually work, and what they are actually doing. Because there is a lot of absolute rubbish spouted by "experts" in the hobby circles. You just have to look at the evidence in nature, as well as the hundreds and hundreds of scientist which have studied these environments, who all come to the same conclusion on what they do. Layton hi layton, how is your tank coming along? any pic's? just to show the DSB guy's how a "real" tank looks with lots of growing acro's and the lot. you know the stuff you frag and sell or give to other reefers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted November 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2005 Well since there has been a fair bit of interest I've invited Reeftec to visit our forum and tell us a bit about his tank management etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkey Posted November 24, 2005 Report Share Posted November 24, 2005 how is your tank coming along? any pic's? just to show the DSB guy's how a "real" tank looks with lots of growing acro's and the lot. you know the stuff you frag and sell or give to other reefers. I second that!!!! Layton your quick to put down DSB we all see your dislike for them from your comments . show us you tank :evil: . By the way there are plenty of DSB tanks that have been running for ten plus years with no stirring you need to do your homework As you chemical lessons don't cut it.And if you do show some pics make sure they are yours this time!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted November 24, 2005 Report Share Posted November 24, 2005 Do you think its possible to have 1 thread on this site that doesn't revert into constant arguements about sandbeds. Its all been said, DSB work regardless of what Layton has said previously, its a fact, this tank is just one of many that proves it. We have heard both sides of the "arguement", its time to change the record. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 24, 2005 Report Share Posted November 24, 2005 I second that!!!! Layton your quick to put down DSB we all see your dislike for them from your comments . show us you tank :evil: . I'm not putting DSB's down. Just showing how they work and what they do. Some animals couldn't care less about them cycling nutrients, but for others it can kill them. By the way there are plenty of DSB tanks that have been running for ten plus years with no stirring you need to do your homework As you chemical lessons don't cut it. :roll: Where's YOUR homework? Here's mine: Effect of emersion and immersion on the porewater nutrient dynamics of an intertidal sandflat in Tokyo Bay, Estuarine, Coastal and Shelf Science, Volume 57, Issues 5-6, August 2003, Pages 929-940 Tomohiro Kuwae, Eiji Kibe and Yoshiyuki Nakamura Sediment oxygen consumption and vertical flux of organic matter in the Seto Inland Sea, Japan, Estuarine, Coastal and Shelf Science, Volume 56, Issue 2, February 2003, Pages 213-220 Y. Nakamura Assay of phosphatase activity and ATP biomass in tideland sediments and classification of the intertidal area using chemical values, Marine Pollution Bulletin, Volume 47, Issues 1-6, January-June 2003, Pages 5-9 Ken-ichi Nakamura and Chieko Takaya Degree of pollution for marine sediments, Engineering Geology, Volume 53, Issue 2, June 1999, Pages 131-137 M. Fukue, T. Nakamura, Y. Kato and S. Yamasaki Water Research Volume 36, Issue 4 , February 2002, Pages 1007-1017 Phosphorus Budget as a water quality management tool for Closed aquatic mesocosms Advances in Environmental Research Volume 6, Issue 2 , March 2002, Pages 135-142 Field measurements of SOD and sediment nutrient fluxes in a land-locked embayment in Hong Kong K. W. Chaum Water Science & Technology Vol 42 No 3-4 pp 265–272 © IWA Publishing 2000 Non-steady variations of SOD and phosphate release rate due to changes in the quality of the overlying water T Inoue, Y Nakamura and Y Adachi Water Science and Technology Vol 30 No 10 pp 263–272 © IWA Publishing 1994 Effect of flow velocity on phosphate release from sediment Yoshiyuki Nakamura Effects of Benthic Flux on Short Term Variations of Nutrients in Aburatsubo Bay KAZUFUMI TAKAYANAGI and HISASHI YAMADA Marine Pollution Bulletin Volume 20, Issue 12 , December 1989, Pages 624-628 Alteration of phosphorus dynamics during experimental eutrophication of enclosed marine ecosystems Kenneth R. Hinga Author/Editor/Inventor Hopkinson Charles S, Jr [a]; Giblin Anney E; Tucker Jane; Garritt Robert H. Institution [a] Ecosystems Center, Marine Biological Laboratory, Woods Hole, MA, 02543 USA. Title (English) Benthic metabolism and nutrient cycling along an estuarine salinity gradient. Smolders, A.J.P.; Lamers,L.P.M.; Moonen, M; Zwaga, K; Roelofs, J.G.M. 2001. Controlling phosphate release from phosphate-enriched sediments by adding various irons compounds. Biogeochemistry, 54(2): 219-228. Ye, Y; Tam, N.F.Y; Wong, Y. S. 2001. Livestock Wastewater Treatment by a Mangrove Pot-cultivation System and the Effect of Salinity on the Nutrient Removal Efficiency. Marine Pollution Bulletin, 42(6): 512-520. http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/ocd/sferpm/szm ... Final.html http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/ocd/sferpm/szm ... rlson.html http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/Bot482/Kan ... 20Biol.pdf http://www.agralin.nl/wda/abstracts/ab1555.html http://www.fknms.nos.noaa.gov/research_ ... _paper.pdf http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:N9V ... n&ie=UTF-8 http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extens ... /phos.html http://enterprise.canberra.edu.au/WWW/W ... enDocument http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/~edecarlo/spatntemp.pdf http://www.gbrmpa.gov.au/corp_site/info ... rients.pdf http://www.montana.edu/ecology/courses/ ... phorus.doc http://www.ozestuaries.org/indicators/I ... nts_f.html http://www.ebc.uu.se/norr.malma/researc ... phorus.pdf Even A Book: http://www.springer.com/sgw/cda/frontpa ... ww.wkap.nl Like shooting fish in a barrel (so to speak). Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted November 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2005 . Well, in your defence Layton, I will have to say you are the most knowledgeable reef keeper I know, who doesn't actually keep one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 24, 2005 Report Share Posted November 24, 2005 Zeovit makes Acro's colours look weak big call cracker, go to zeovit.com and tell me that those colours are "weak". go to jetski's house and tell me his acro's look "weak". nothing personal, but thats such a typical type of comment on this site. someone see's ONE example and turns that into general consensus. :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveA Posted November 24, 2005 Report Share Posted November 24, 2005 Parts of my tank have a DSB and parts are BB - one of my fish has it’s own ideas as to how the sand I do have (nominally 3cm over front section of tank) should be arranged and gets very aggravated when I smooth it out to cover the bald areas it has carefully prepared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reeftec Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 hello everyone first i want to thank you all for your interest in my tank,i am very humbled to be invited to this discussion. before anything i have to say i am no expert or marine biologist,i am engineer from vancouver canada with no background in aquarium hobby or caring for any live animals(bigcity boy). i used to live in germany till i was 10 ,i still go back a couple of times a year to see fam & firends so i always seen reeftanks around,big tanks that were running on a plenum for 15 years(high maintanance) i was always mesmorized however it was too much biology than technology for me so i always stayed away,afew years back i saw some tanks that were all automated & they could actualy test for the parameters they are trying to maintain,it was not all guessing there are actually different ways of maintaing marine biotopes today(as much as we do not know much about them),mechanicly &electronicly with acceptable level of success. so i started my reeftank 2 years ago with 3 things in mind maximum automation,no visible manmade equipment in sight&most natural (parameters,lighting,positionning,etc)envoirment for animals tank & equipment 72 gal bowfront/10gal sump /10gal refugium/40 gal prop tank(was just added to system last month) about 145 gal whole system with plummimg 2x 400 w xm 10k (7 hrs) ,2x 54w t5 (1x10k&1x actinic 9 hrsk) 2x96w pc actinic (12 hrs) ( 1100 w total on 4' long tank) 65w on refuge calcium(cr 422) rx on pinpoint ph controller & second chamber auto topoff(ro/di water) circulation 1x tunze 6100 on controller(3175 gal/hr) & 4x maxijets(4x300 gal/hr) return from sump 900 gal/hr euroreefskimmer for 110 gal ozone 200 mg/hr on controller injected into skimmer rowaphos reactor ,18 w uv on return from sump 1/4 horse power chiller,heaters 70lb of mixed rock & dsb 3" front to 6" in back area ,dsb in refugium with grape caulerpa lights on 24/7 no bioload in prop tank no rock just 40 gal extra water with478 w of light &lots of flow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reeftec Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 ph 8.2 alk 9 dkh ca 430 ppm mg 1350 ppm sg 1.025 temp 78-79 f orp 380 mv po4 p03 amo,nitrate,etc not detectable with salifert these are my parameters now however i had my alk @ 12 dkh for 6 months with no sideeffects that i could detect waterchange 15% weekly carbon changed @ 1l/week rowaphos 130 g/month kent salt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted November 25, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 Welcome Reeftec !! How long has the DSB been in? From the beginning of the tank? And what fish do you have? Got any more of those eye candy pics to show us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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