cracker Posted November 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 it seems after as much info as i can get regarding this product that you need to finish the last dose. maybe even a bit longer. otherwise it comes back with avengence and kicks ass. just like what happened to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossco Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Hi folk Following on from my 'Dang tang' post I can report that the little b.....d is back to 'normal' after his squashing, wet air, and formalin treatment. It was probably the formalin though that knocked his white spot. Thanks to the generosity of Paul I have been able to add some Stop Parasite to the tank and touch wood, no more sign of it in the other folk. I have been trying the garlic added to food but after about 4-5 days I think it started to put them OFF their food so knocked it back a fair bit. Thought that it was better to keep them fed well. I would recommend the formalin treatment as a 'strong' response - trouble is to catch the little critters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slappers Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 no worries rossco glad it went to a good home Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted November 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 update..... lost my 2 oscellaris clowns in the hospital tank....we wont go there... Flame angel succombed to ICH...DEAD. blue tang and all else seem ok and will probably make it now that the salifert is in place. still a lot of ich in the tank. lost 7 fish in the last week: 1 x watanabe angel, (unknown reason....simply vanished into thin air) 1 x pink skunk clown (ICH) 2 x oscellaris (jumped out of hospital tank and gobbled by puddy tat) 1 x flame (ICH) 1 x banggai (not sure, just a pussy from the start). 1 x kole tang (ICH) still got: 9 x chromis, sweet as 1 x yellow bellied damsel, sweet as 2 x tomatoes covered in ICH 1 x blue tang covered in ICH 2 x yellow tangs covered in ICH 1 x six line wrasse, sweet as 1 x sailfin tang, going great in the hospital tank so far. My flame was one of my first purchases in my original cube tank and he was tough as boots. gutted. :evil: and its not over yet..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted November 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 this is a mean arse disease once fully in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fay Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry :evil: My only suggestion is to do what Pies has done and don't get anymore fish for months after you know its gone. It must be very upsetting jetski asked why I didn't have any Tangs when he came to visit, my answer was simply they are ICH magnets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted November 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 ive done a heap of reading over the past couple of days...and it doesnt matter what fish you have you can successfuly put it in your tank with no issues...just got to do it right. there are definite procedures. i will be doing this from now on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fay Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Cracker said: ive done a heap of reading over the past couple of days...and it doesnt matter what fish you have you can successfuly put it in your tank with no issues...just got to do it right. there are definite procedures. i will be doing this from now on. Well are you going to tell us what the procedures are: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 its a trade secret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 I dont think so, Just is a good idea to quarantine all your fish for a few weeks before placing in your tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misnoma Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Cracker said: Well are you going to tell us what the procedures are: If he told us, he wouldn't be an "expert", better he hints at it and encourages us to research it ourselves and learn :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 I dont think so, it was sarcasm If he told us, he wouldn't be an "expert", better he hints at it and encourages us to research it ourselves and learn "i know something you dont know". come on cracker blurt out ya idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Surely it's quaranteen first? I've set up a dedicated QT tank now and everything I get will spend 6 weeks in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted November 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 starting another thread! Lost my small tomato this morning, the stages were too far in for salifert to assist. check out the new thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted November 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2005 Must be Ich season. I lost my adult Emperor Angel over night. It was fine yesterday, but this morning it was dead on the bottom covered in whitespot. I haven't seen any signs of ich for many months. None of the other fish have it. Maybe the ich was just a secondary thing after the fish had died? Ich doesnt just appear out of no where unless you have put a piece of rock, coral, fish or something in the tank or sump/s. either you added it or your tank is carrying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted November 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 Had to put my large Female Tomato in hospital today...... Parasites had hit too hard. She let me catch her! See what happens...she's pretty tough. Im pretty sure Ive got ICH and MARINE VELVET.......great! Blue tang has only 5% of visable spots remaining. Yellow tangs are reducing also. Salifert is working so far. will keep posting........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 14, 2005 Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 Ich doesnt just appear out of no where unless you have put a piece of rock, coral, fish or something in the tank or sump/s. either you added it or your tank is carrying it. Good luck finding a tank which doesn't carry it. In my experience calm healthy fish don't die from ich. It is very difficult to eradicate ich completely. You can either kill it using copper or play a stats game and wait months or years until it erradicates itself through gradual fish immunity and death during the theront stage from not finding a host to infect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted November 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 I reckon I can do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 14, 2005 Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 How? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted November 14, 2005 Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 How? This may enlighten - Quote - "There is a widely held belief in the marine aquarium hobby that "Ich" is always present in our aquaria and this belief is often repeated on marine bulletin boards. There is much information in the scientific literature that contradicts this belief. C. irritans is an obligate parasite (Burgess and Matthews, 1994; Dickerson and Dawe, 1995; Yoshinaga and Dickerson, 1994). Obligate means the parasite can not survive without infecting its host, in this case, fish. Theronts have been shown to die if a suitable host is not found within the required time. Yoshinaga and Dickerson (1994) found that few theronts (0.34%) were viable 12.5 hours after excystment and Burgess and Matthews (1994) found that no theronts were viable 18 hours after excystment. Colorni (1985) found that some excysted tomites (=theronts) were observed to be moving weekly after 48 hours. While the life span of the theronts appears variable, it is limited and all will die without finding a suitable host. If an aquarium has no fish in it, and there are no additions of fish, or anything else that could be carrying trophonts, tomonts, tomites or theronts for a period of 6 weeks or longer, all parasites will have died. An aquarium such as this is an obvious exception to "Ich" always being present. Many fish collected for marine aquariums will not be carrying "Ich". Incidence of C. irritans in wild fish varies widely and may be geographically related. Some authors have found few infected fish, if any, in the areas they have examined (Puerto Rico: Bunkley-Williams and Williams, 1994; southern California: Wilkie and Gordin, 1969) . Others have found that low levels of infection are not uncommon (e.g. southern Queensland; Diggles and Lester, 1996). Keeping multiple fish in holding tanks and at aquarium stores increases the chances of a fish carrying "Ich" parasites, but it is still possible to acquire a fish that is not infected with "Ich". If new fish are quarantined for at least 6 weeks, any parasites on the fish will have gone through a number of life cycles increasing the number of parasites present. In the majority of cases, the increase in parasite numbers will result in full blown infection and fish can be treated to remove the parasites. Hyposalinity has been demonstrated to break the life cycle of "Ich" (Cheung et al. 1979; Colorni, 1985) and fish correctly treated with hyposalinity will be free from "Ich". Any fish that do not show signs of infection after 6 weeks are very unlikely to be carrying any parasites. If fish that are free from "Ich" (either because they were not originally infected or because they have been treated with hyposalinity) are added to an aquarium that is free from "Ich", the aquarium will stay free from "Ich" and be another exception to "Ich" always being present. Burgess and Matthews (1994) were attempting to maintain a viable population of C. irritans which could be used in later studies. To maintain the parasite populations, they needed host fish in order for the trophonts to feed and continue the life cycle. Each host fish was only used once in a process of serial transition such that none of the hosts would die or develop an immunity. While the procedure worked very well and enabled them to maintain populations for some time, the viability of the populations decreased with time and none of the 7 isolates they used survived more than 34 cycles, around 10 to 11 months. They suggest this is due to senescence and aging in cell lines is well recognised in Ciliophora. The presence of aging cell lines in C. irritans suggests that an aquarium that has been running for longer than 12 months without any additions is unlikely to have any surviving "Ich" parasites, yet another exception to "Ich" always being present. Whilst "Ich" may be present in some aquaria, it is certainly not present in all aquaria. Through careful quarantining and treatment, it is very much possible to establish and maintain an "Ich" free aquarium." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted November 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 How? basically along the lines mentioned above!! Cheers Wasp! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 14, 2005 Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 basically along the lines mentioned above!! Cheers Wasp! so you're going to play a stats game and wait months or years until it erradicates itself through gradual fish immunity and death during the theront stage from not finding a host to infect.? Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted November 14, 2005 Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 Don't know what a stats game is myself Did it say something about that in the article? You might have missed the last part of the article where it discusses work by Burgess and Matthews (1994), may be the most enlightening part of all. Will clarify how strict QT procedures will get the tank clean in under a year, with no other treatment needed. wait months or years until it erradicates itself through gradual fish immunity and death Layton I'm not Cracker but doubt this is his plan. However, for most of us fish immunity will be an important part of the picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 14, 2005 Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 Burgess and Matthews (1995) demonstrated acquired immunity in the thick-lipped mullet, Chelon labrosus. They found that 82% of fish that had been previously exposed to high levels of theronts were immune to a secondary exposure. So a percentage of fish become immune after exposure. There is going to be a definite probability that a fish will become infected again. And only a percentage of viable theronts are going to find a host to complete the cycle, lets say 10% just for arguments sake. Of course the viablility is dependant on how long it takes for them to find a host. So the stats game is where the theronts have fewer and fewer hosts to infect due to immunity, so the theronts stay in that stage longer, which increases the probability of them dying from not finding a host. This will slowly diminish there numbers over a longish period. Definitely not a quick fix. Plus you can really never know if it is still in your tank or not. A fish can have a minor infection without you knowing. It's hard to spot a few cells with your eye alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted November 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 Im going to treat the tank two or three times over a year so as to help get rid of the original issue, with "stop parasite". QT every new fish for 6 weeks. (week one =0, week 2 and 3 = copper, following weeks = 0). "Reef dip" every rock, coral, shell, zoo or whatever before it goes in. then Im going to prove my point by adding a powder blue tang as my last fish and show it getting zero whitespot. once a reef is established, you want to leave it anyway....no need to keep adding things all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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