Scratching!

[Caper]

The last couple of days I have noticed that 1 platty, oops, make that 2 platties since another was scratching last night as well, and a couple of my guppies were scratching themselves on things.

I've tried to see the best I could but I do not see anything visible on them to indicate why they would be doing this. No signs of Ich, I'm sure that would have been visible by now.

The only thing that I see on the platty is maybe a shiny white section behind his eyes, I guess maybe on the gill. But to be honest, I'm not sure if that has been there all along or not. See, he was of my new guys and depending on which way his swimming you don't see it, so I could just be his color I don't know.

Paraments are ok...and did a vacuum and water change last night. I haven't noticed the scratching today...but could be I'm just missing it...since spending a lot of time on here catching up and sitting with a heating pad on back (water changes!) :roll:

I had to remove all ornaments and give them and glass a good cleaning as there was quite a bit of algae starting to build up (haven't been able to get ottos yet). I looked on the net but from what I've found so far algae doesn't affect the fish. Soooooooooooo, what do you folks think?

[Snowman]

Hi Caper, all i can suggest is keeping an eye on them for Ich, keep up the water changes as normal maybe some stress coat or melafix if you have any and my main one at the moment, cross your fingers LOL

[Caper]

I would think that if it was Ich, I'd have seen the spots by now, don't you think? Approximately, how long after they start scratching would the Ich appear?

I thought "Start Right" was similar to the stress coat. I'll have to read about both when I'm in the store, maybe I'm wrong.

Haven't noticed any scratching tonight so far...but then... :roll: I know...it's hard to believe... that I don't sit watching them 24/7... :lol: :lol: :lol:

So, what do you think about the algae, could this make them itchy? I was looking on the net and the only thing I saw was in regard to goldfish (which I do not have in this tank) something about too much algae.

I'm waiting for them to get ottos...they only have plecs...and my tank is too small for them.

[Aftaburn]

I've got a recent spawn of bristlenose catfish... when a little bigger they'd be my pick for algae control.

[Caper]

I haven't seen the bristlenoses here either Aftaburn. I have 2 ottos in my 10 gallon so thought I'd try to get them for this tank as well but they haven't had any in for awhile now.

[Caper]

Weird...I was just checking on fishies to see if anymore scratching going on...well, the ones that had been scratching last night, don't seem to be tonight! Or if they are, they aren't doing it as often.

Although, a different platy was scratching tonight :roll: :roll: .

[Faran]

Hi Caper, do you add salt to your livebearer tanks? Might help with skin irritations and LBs like a little salt.

Just remembered I should be a little more specific. Salt from your fish store (rock salt)... 1 level teaspoon to each litre of water or one lever tablespoon to each gallon.

[Caper]

I did add some salt...uhhh...the other night instead of cleaning...but tank needed cleaning so I did it last night.

I've only put salt in it once before and was told that I only needed to do it every 3 to 4 months...but then what do they know (store).

Where I changed water last night, do you think I should add more salt????

Just noticed between commercials..haha...that the other fish are still scratching too. What's frustrating is that I can't see anything at all on any of the fish to indicate a problem...other than the scratching!

Uh...so...should I add more salt after adding some the other night? Don't want to end up with toooooooooooo much salt.

[Caper]

Just remembered I should be a little more specific. Salt from your fish store (rock salt)... 1 level teaspoon to each litre of water or one lever tablespoon to each gallon

I haven't added salt since this was recommended because I had added salt a couple of days before starting this post. I wasn't sure if it was too soon. So, I think it is a week a since I added the salt, should I add more?

I've seen on the net about adding salt too...but it doesn't say how often you can add it. I don't want to "overdose" with salt.

The fish (only guppies and platies) are still scratching with no visible signs of anything else going on with them. I don't want to add more salt unless you think I can.

What should I do? Checked water ammonia 0, nitrites 0, pH between 7.2 and 7.6.

[Alan]

Caper,

ya just don't keep adding salt to your aquarium.

You'll end up with the Dead Sea type salinity in time.

Salt is only added to water that is replacing water removed from the tank.

Replacement of evaporated water tho has no salt added,

as the evaporate is only water and the salt stays in the tank.

OK???

Alan 104

[Caper]

Well...I don't want to end up with the Dead Sea in my tank

I just checked on the box and July 14th was the first time I added salt to both tanks. The lady at the dept. store said only add every 3 to 4 months.

But because I was having a bit of trouble I did add again, well, I guess almost a month later. So, from what you are saying Alan, I should not add more.

If I'm understanding you correctly, Alan, when I top up my tank (evaporation) I don't add salt. But should I be adding salt when I do my water changes? I AM SO CONFUSED with salt versus no salt :-? :roll:

Is is possible that the platies and guppies don't like the salt and that is why they are scratching?

I just wish they would tell me why they are itchy :roll:

[Alan]

Alan said

Salt is only added to water that is replacing water removed from the tank.

Replacement of evaporated water tho has no salt added,

Read that part Caper.

It does make sense.

The guppies and platies don't mind the salt. But don't get carried away.

If those fish are scratching, it sounds to me like parasitic.

Maybe a salt bath would help.

That is a lot higher salinity than what your tank is running at.

The fish are only in it for a short period or until distressed.

I think if you check Pegusus's site you'll find the amount to use.

Alan 104

[Pegasus]

Ok... Let's see if we can make this a bit easier

Salt is added to some tanks mainly for two reasons.

First... It replaces some of the minerals lost by water changes.. or adds minerals to certain water supplies that have few minerals in them.

It's important to remember, that salt DOESN'T evaporate.. so as Alan points out.. you DON'T add it willy nilly just for the sake of it, as the concentrations would build up to a high level, which is not good for most freshwater fish.

Second reason for salt addition is that it is a natural tonic for the fish.

Every fish carries a protective coat of mucus, and this mucus acts as a barrier that is constantly being replaced naturally.

Often if the fish becomes sick, this barrier breaks down, and so the fish is then subceptical to further invasions of all manner of things.

Fish that are twitching or scratching often damage this mucus layer, and so once again are open to attack from disease. Often the scratching is due to a parasite that has attacked the fish while it was run down and at a weak period of its resistance to disease.

High ammonia levels can literally burn this mucus off, which is why we have to be very careful not to let these levels get out of hand.

The salt added to the tank.. (or as a separate bath).. flushes the damaged mucus from the fish and rapidly promotes new growth of the protective coating.

There are countless thousands of articles written on the benefits of salt in the aquaria.. and also a great deal of confusion on the recomended doses, but all agree that certain levels of salt are good for most livebearers.. but not for catfish.

The products marked "Sea Salt" at your supermarket are suitable for your use.

If you take water OUT of your tank, you are removing not only the salt, but the minerals.

If you are TOPPING UP because of evaporation, then the concentrations of salt and minerals remain the same, so therefore you don't need to add more.

Remember that it takes only seconds to PUT something into your tank (meds etc).. but could take months to remove if you need to.

[BK]

Salt with Catfish. I have Cory's and a BN and add salt. Not much about one teaspoon per 10ltr. Is this to much.

[Caper]

Thanks Alan & Bill

Okay, I see what you're saying about the evaporation and top ups compared to water removal (water changes) in regard to salt being removed from the tank.

But, :oops: sorry guys :oops: , aside from using salt as a tonic, should I have salt in both my tanks ALL the time (unless I have fish that shouldn't be in salt)?

If that is so, then everytime I change my water the water I put back in should have salt in it, am I getting the hang of this :oops: :oops: ?

10 gallon: 2 ottos, 1 common goldfish, 3 fantails (should I have salt in tank with ottos??????)

-regular water change of approximately 20% (could be a tad more if evaporation has taken place), which is close to 9L (2 gallons)

-so, I should be adding salt to the water going back in 1 tablespoon/gallon or 1 teaspoon/litre?

29 gallon: 9 neons, 2 black neons, 3 platies, 3 guppies, 2 mollies

same as above (in relation to the 20% change).

Bill, what site of yours does Alan mean?

Proper way to do a salt bath, I've read a few places about doing this, what do you recommend (e.g. what to put fish in, amount of salt, how long, repeat, etc???)

Thanks again

[Pegasus]

Hi again,

I honestly think that you are worrying too much over this, as it is one of those things that we can "do".. but only do if we see our fish looking a bit off colour (so to speak)

You don't "need" salt in your tank, but the reasons we add it are outlined above.

I personally only add a little salt if I see that the fish are a bit down, but don't add it on a regular basis.... nor do I add it at every water change.

I "do" use it as a medication in preference to chemicals, but again, only as required.

As mentioned... Livebearers seem to fare a little better with the addition of a bit of salt.. but your fish are not going to die if you happen to forget to add some every few months or so... or even if you leave it out all together.

You ask:

Bill, what site of yours does Alan mean?

Most of my signatures have the addy.

You also ask:

Proper way to do a salt bath, I've read a few places about doing this, what do you recommend (e.g. what to put fish in, amount of salt, how long, repeat, etc???)

There are lots of post on this subject, and most methods vary from one to the other.

One method is to add (approx) one level tablespoon per two or three litres of water... but again, it depends on what you are treating.

I mix the salt and water thoroughly before adding the fish.

I usually leave the fish in there for ten mins or so... or remove it if it shows signs of stress.

Many use less... while many use more.. so there is no fixed rule.

For severe fin damage I use the progressive salt treatment.

With this method the salt is increased gradually over a week or ten days so that you finish up with around three or four level tablepoons per imperial gallon (4.5 - 5 ltrs)

I never dose "in tank".. but always in separate quarters.

HTH

[Alan]

While we are on the great salt debate, check out this article.

http://tcoletti.tripod.com/molly_salt_debate.html

A bit of reading, may want to put that away to your favs.

Alan 104

[Caper]

Thanks so much guys for the info... :oops: and for putting up with me.

I've read the article Alan and it has been added to my favourites.

I did look at the first address under your signature Bill, will have to check it out again today. I've been off work since yesterday...and haven't been feeling up to snuff...so will read again today. Hey, maybe I need a salt bath

Salt bath for fishies today!

:oops: Couple more questions:

1) Can I use bucket used for water changes?

2) Can I put all the affected fish in together?

3) And I am using water removed from tank?

Thanks again

[Caper]

Guppies and platies have had their salt bath. That part was easy, it was catching them that was hard.

Now I'll keep an eye out to see if they still scratch!

THANK FOR ALL THE HELP

Of course...I have one more question on the subject :roll: :roll: Does scratching always mean something is wrong...or do fish ever "just scratch"? I read somewhere on the net that they can scratch for no particular reason other than being a bit itchy (sorta like us, was the way it was explained)...any truth in this?

[Alan]

An itch is created by something that is annoying.

No annoyance.

No itching.

OK???

Alan 104

[Caper]

Okay...at least a couple of the fish are still scratching! Haven't noticed yet if all 6 are still doing it but willing to bet they are

Somethng I did notice...on one of the ornaments...they was a long hair stuck to it...not mine, as I have short hair...I have removed it, but is it possible that this could have been irritating the fish. But then, if that were the case, I guess they'd all be scratching.

Also, just noticed that one of the guppies and one of the platies poo is long and fine-thread like...is this normal? I have never seen it like this before though. Where as at the same time one of the other platies was beside it and it's poo was short and thicker looking.

What should I do now?

[jude]

I'm no expert, which is why I keep my mouth shut most of the time but I think that could mean parasites. Don't worry though, just wait for someone with more experience to answer. There are treatments for parasites I believe.

Cheers

Jude

[Caper]

Thanks Jude

I've been looking at somethings about parasites on the net.

One article said that a salt bath may need to repeated.

Waiting for opinions on this...I hope that is all I have to do!

[Caper]

Anybody...fishies are still scratching. Just the guppies and platies.

There are still no visible signs of anything on them.

Should I repeat the salt bath? How often can I do this (e.g. once a day for x number of days)?

If I do the salt bath, should I also do small water changes for x number of days?

[Pegasus]

Also, just noticed that one of the guppies and one of the platies poo is long and fine-thread like...is this normal? I have never seen it like this before though. Where as at the same time one of the other platies was beside it and it's poo was short and thicker looking.

Hi Caper,

Often this is food related.. but as only certain fish are showing stringy waste, then it could be something in the digestive tract that is not quite right, but possible a change of food type might help.

Should I repeat the salt bath? How often can I do this (e.g. once a day for x number of days)?

It certaily won't do them any harm to give them a dip every day or so.. but then there is the stress factor you have to consider.. so do it as gently as possible.

If I do the salt bath, should I also do small water changes for x number of days?

Hard to say what is in your tank and causing the fish to scratch... but water changes can only improve things by reducing whatever is the cause.

Fish scratch for a number of reasons, and it is "usually" a sign of an upcoming ailment.

It "could" be parasites.. or it could be water conditions, but unless you/we can isolate the cause it is hard to suggest a remedy.

Bill.