brown algie

[tel]

hi ,wonder if someone could please advise me on brown algie.im new to salt so may ask some cracker questions!my tank is still cycling and brown and green algie forming well on nitrified coral and coral sand,whats a good way to clean sand and will good green take over given correct light?

[wasp]

The brown algae is likely brown diatonomous algae, which shows on the glass as brown powdery stuff.

It requires silicate, which is present in most new tanks in good quantity. However, as you use your protein skimmer, I assume you have one, it will remove algae particles containing silicate, and in this way over time, reduce the silicate level in your tank. Because of this, the brown diatonomous algae will gradually dissapear.

Not quite so easy with the green algae though, which does not require silicate, but does need phosphate. Phosphate can be removed by the skimmer in much the same way as silicate, but the problem is you add more phosphate every time you feed. So green algae may take a bit more beating, you need to have a means in place to remove at least as much phosphate from the tank, as what you are putting in with food etc.

[tel]

thanks ,it is diatom type.now for the possibly obscene truth,no protein skimmer,tank is only 72 lts,biolife internal wet/dry filter.previous owner ran this as marine and i thought it a good place to start before i go large with next setup @ xmas 150-200lts with sump ,skimmer and eheim external.knowing this do you have any further advice please?

[wasp]

Well if you are upgrading at Christmas there is little point putting a skimmer on it, just run it how it is and try to use the best possible water for changes/top up.

But you should try to get a skimmer for your next tank.

[Brianemone]

also depends on your stocking levels. i ran an 80ltr tank for 5 months with no algae problems but it was lightly stocked and had well cycled rock. when i added a skimmer the corals improved, so a skimmer is better than no skimmer.

[wasp]

Tel, a wet and dry filter is not the best thing for a marine tank. When you upgrade to your big tank, much better not to use the wet and dry. Don't use a cannister filter either. Your filtration should be based around liverock, enough water flow, and a skimmer. The money you don't spend on an eheim cannister will be a good contribution towards a skimmer.

The reason for this is that the nitrogen cycle goes thus - ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, nitrogen gas. The object is to take it all the way to nitrogen gas which then leaves the tank via gas exchange. But to convert nitrate to nitrogen gas, you need low aerobic bacteria that live within liverock, in the layer below the high oxygen surface. In a wet/dry, or a cannister, all the media is kept highly aerated, so the bacteria do not break down nitrate. Therefore removing this type of filtration will result in lower nitrate levels, and a more healthy environment for your fish / corals. In fact, many corals will not prosper and perhaps even die in a higher nitrate environment, such as you will get if you use a wet/dry or cannister.

You will still find people using these types of filtration, but it is better without.

Skimmers, there has recently been some discussion here on the subject, you could do a search. But the bottom line is, they remove a lot of crud from your water, which is a tremendous advantage to keeping your tank sparkling clean. A good skimmer will last you for life, it is best to start out with a decent one.

[tel]

thanks for the feedback.there are so many differing views around.some old school advice centers around water changes to combat nitrate and the inevertibility of constant nitrate @20ppm.does using the sump type system with no canister give 0 nitrate?also i live opposite the water in melons bay so very curious to hear peoples experiences re synthetic or natural.

[Brianemone]

one thing you will find people on this site agree on, (probably the only thing), is that a skimmer is the most important peice of filtration equiptment for a marine/reef aquarium.

melon bay is in auclkand??? ask a reefer in your area for advise as to where is best to collect water if your going to use natural salt water

[chimera]

definately, the berlin method (lr for biological filtration and some denitrification and a decent skimmer as mechanical filtration for nitrate control) seems to be the most commonly used system due to it's success for most people (most, not all) as with any system, any method will 'appear to fail' initially, even after cycling, but patience is the key to this hobby. bad algae's can come and go, typically when maintenance is missed or left too long. it is also generally recommended not to dose (or if you do, specifically dont overdose) any supplements. rely on water changes to take out the crap and replace the goodness i would add some form of good phosphate control helps too (you can leave that too later)

[tel]

what do you mean by ''appear to fail''?when initially cycling what do you suggest in terms of water changes?

[chimera]

knew you'd ask that! by that i mean from a beginners point of view, or more specifically from someone who is new to the hobby and inexperienced (not saying you are, just generalising), you will setup your new tank, all eager and ready to stock it. hopefully you're bound to know that your tank needs cycling as staff at your lfs will have told you that, but thats about as limited as your knowledge goes (typically). so your new tank is setup, all cycling and you are thinking, ok i've been told this takes a while. i can wait. so you wait, your tank has finished cycling, you add fish, you add corals, a week later boom! diatom growth. to some, it "appears to fail". to others, they research, find out this is typically normal so continue. sometime after that you get cyanobacteria growth all over your rocks and substrate, again, to some it "appears to fail" not realising that this is reasonably common. however if you dont have knowledge, you start questioning the method of filtration you're using, you question the hardware the lfs sold you. but you continue again, green algae, more diatoms, bad algae everywhere. does the beginner think they are failing? do they give up? do they think the filtration they're using is adequate? only if they believe what appears to be failure is in fact common for anyone setting up a tank. you've just got to battle through it! get my meaning now?!

[tel]

yeah thanks.do you suggest regular water changes thru the initial cycle and if so how much?

[chimera]

Water changes while cycling depends on the method you're using. Some people recommend not doing water changes while the tanks cycling because they think it disturbs the bacteria thats colonising the biological filter and will either prevent the tank from cycling or will make it take longer to cycle. I think this is a common misconception. In the berlin method however, the biological filter is what you want the bacteria to colonise - the live rock! However, IMO performing small and frequent water changes while cycling may speed up the cycling process. Taking out a small percentage of water also removes ammonia, nitrites, nitrates etc while it's cycling, replacing with good bacteria from a fresh batch. I would say 20% a week as a guestimate? Dont go large changes as you dont want to remove too much of the nitrifying bacteria that are trying to colonise the rock and helping cycle your tank.

[tel]

ta.saw your tank and it seems very lightly stocked.

[Pies]

However, IMO performing small and frequent water changes while cycling may speed up the cycling process.

No. The water changes remove amonia from the water, which is the key to the tank cycling. This is why some add 'starter fish' or bits of food to rot, it seeds amonia which is the basis for the cycle. Water changes during the cycle will do nothing but slow down the cycling process.

As for water changes to control Nitrate, not really. It takes 17 50% water changes to get 100ppm to bellow 5ppm. So you need to do lots of massive water changes to control nirate, not very practical for most of us.

pie

[chimera]

This is why some add 'starter fish' or bits of food to rot, it seeds amonia which is the basis for the cycle.

some? your tank will NOT start cycling unless you add SOMETHING to it. a mussel is commonly used if you dont want to put any starter fish under stress.

Water changes during the cycle will do nothing but slow down the cycling process.

"If you have the ability to do so, then do as many large percentage water changes during the cycling process as you can. At least weekly, more so if it is possible. And it needs to be in the order of 50% or more of the system total volume changed, that way it actually makes a significant difference to the concentration of the various species in the water. 10-20% does not do a whole lot and at this stage keeping the water parameters in line as much as possible is the goal, hopefully helping to allow more life on the liverock to survive. For example, if the water has 5 ppm of ammonia in it, then a 10% water change will reduce the concentration to only 4.5 ppm, an insignificant change. Whereas, 50% will reduced the ammonia level to 2.5 ppm"

reference: http://ozreef.org/content/view/40/28/

Take your pick as to who you want to believe, some sites list it as pro water change, some anti water change and other say it does not make an ounce of difference (such as the link above) A couple are for freshwater but the principle remains the same.

http://www.reefcorner.com/Manual/nitrogen_cycle.htm

http://www.bestfish.com/breakin.html

http://www.ratemyfishtank.com/article2.php

http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aquainfo/cycling_your_tank1.html

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article19.html

it's all down to personal experience on here, who knows. it cant hurt either way, your tank will eventually cycle no matter what!

[Brianemone]

the one you posted was refering to using live rock and doing water changes to keep as much life as possible during the initial cycle, i think with base live rock the water changes defeat the purpose of cycling

[wasp]

Well Tel, you've just learned the first rule of reefkeeping, being everybody has a different opinion.

The other rule is that several different opinions can all be workable, and "right". Sometimes you have to sift the wheat from the chaff though .

However, wether you change the water or not, the cycle will happen anyway, normally taking around 6 weeks. At this point you should do a really big, or even total water change, just to remove some of the crud that may have entered your water during cycling. After that, a common water change regime is around 5 or 10 percent a week, or 25 percent once a month. You judge this yourself, it depends on many factors including your bioload. Water from Melon bay? I don't know Melon bay, but if you can get clean looking water, not contaminated by nearby rivers etc, it will often be OK. Collect it just before high tide, when there is an offshore wind and the sea is flat.

And about sumps, yes, do get one in your next set up. The best plan is to have one of a decent size and with good access and head room. This will leave you plenty of options if you decide to use some different equipment than you had origionally planned.

Oh, and nobody has mentioned the "M" word yet, that's Money. This hobby costs all new players much more of it than they ever dreamed it could before they started. Best plan is don't do what I did and get cheap cruddy equipment. This costs more in the long run when you have to replace it with the better quality piece you should have got in the first place. This rule applies in particular to skimmers.

There will be other opinions :lol: , but my opinion is get a good quality stand, tank, sump, and skimmer, spend however much this takes. The other stuff is not quite as difficult or wasteful to replace later if you decide to upgrade.

[tel]

my thought would be that water changes would be beneficial if ammo got to level of inhibiting good bacteria growth,but im new to this obsession!does anyone use hang on skimmers on ar or jebo type tanks?also keen to know the order of peoples setup re skimmer,refug,ar and are most systems totally wet or some damp component?

[wasp]

Tel a good plan for you would be to go and actually look at a few peoples systems, this will help crystalize for you what you want to do. You can see peoples systems on this site, and drop them a private message to arrange a visit, most people are very pleased to welcome a new reefer.

If you are around my area you can come and see mine, the phone number is 479-5446, I'm Alastair.

[tel]

cheers ill give you a buzz when im around north shore to see if it suits,going to see steve over there sometime soon.