SteveA Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 Be lucky to do 2000L tank air intake is very low and bubble size is very large. I have used one of the tall 5000s on my tank for many years and I would not consider it to suffer from either of these issues. Still, it would not be big enough for Pies, I think he would need the 20,000 to be truely satisfied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 The aquamedic tall skimmers are badly designed as they are too tall so you get less air into the skimmer, The taller the skimmer the less air is drawn into it, Bubbles size is very large so you dont get effecient skimming. That is why deltec have short skimmers and large reaction tube. so they end up costing lots more as large tubes are expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 I have seen steves tank, and it looked plenty skimmed to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 have seen steves tank, and it looked plenty skimmed to me! Thats great. My tank with the queen skimmer also looks well skimmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveA Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 In theory, since a taller skimmer will have greater pressure at the depth where the air is sucked into the venturies, and this would increase the effort required to suck in sufficient air, height might prevent sufficient air from being sucked in. This all assumes that the venturies are only just able to suck in sufficient air at zero head. If they are capable of sucking in more than sufficient air at zero head there is no reason to assume they could not suck in sufficient air at normal operating head. As an experiment, I have tried boosting the air going into the skimmer with an air pump. Now that produced big bubbles, possibly because the air pump was too powerful. On the other hand, a taller skimmer significantly increased dwell time and since I only pass water through it at about 3 tank volumes per hour I each molecule of water must spend a lot of time in there. As it operates, I consider the bubbles it produces to be adequately numerous and adequately small and have, on various occasions after making a mess in the tank, been forced to turn off one foaming pump to reduce the quantum of bubbles temporarily. As to bubble size, define large (and small for that matter). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 As an experiment, I have tried boosting the air going into the skimmer with an air pump. Now that produced big bubbles, possibly because the air pump was too powerful. that would happen as the air/water ratio is out, you cant just put additional air into a pump as the water flow has to increase as well, So too much air will also increase bubble size. height might prevent sufficient air from being sucked in Height does prevent additional air being sucked into a skimmer. so to overcome this you need a bigger pump. As to bubble size, define large (and small for that matter). will post photos when i can find them, but there is a few on the net. smaller the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetskisteve Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 My apologies must be another Alois from AK trying to buy Aquamedic from Aquacenta in OZ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 My apologies must be another Alois from AK trying to buy Aquamedic from Aquacenta in OZ. Dont understand the question arthur daley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 My apologies must be another Alois from AK trying to buy Aquamedic from Aquacenta in OZ. Dont understand the question arthur daley, this is a protein skimmer thread arthur. Whats the flow rate of aquacenta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 looks a lot like an importers thread defending short Deltec skimmers, and knocking others, from this angle.... If deltec are better can you please explain.... How much better they are? Why they are better? What the extra % gain costs per % point, over the next best? What tests proved this? There are thousands of great tanks out there running all types of skimmers.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetskisteve Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 So true I myself have been running a Queen skimmer & my corals are still very colorful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie extreme Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 i run a berlin classic and "my tank never looked better" :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveA Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Yesterdays 'conversation’ prompted to have a closer look at my skimmer last night. True to my general memory of its operation, I observed a dense milky swirl of bubbles, none of which appeared to have a diameter greater than 0.5mm and most of which were estimated to be in the 0.25-0.30mm diameter range, that extended from a level just below my knees up to a level a bit above my chin. So, I therefore conclude that either, the Aquamedic 5000 skimmer(s) that one must presume Reef has observed in action and from which he has formed his opinions with respect to bubble size and quantity, was/were faulty, or that my skimmer, plus the identical one I maintain on another tank, are, for some unexplained reason, exceptions. I am aware that the current versions use Aquamedics own Oceanrunner pumps whereas the two I use both have Eheim pumps. It should be noted that I also look after a tank with a small ‘in-tank’ Aquamedic turboflotor skimmer and this one is a load of crap and does fully conform to reefs descriptions. It is perhaps not surprising that I do not find it on their web site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 looks a lot like an importers thread defending short Deltec skimmers, and knocking others, from this angle.... Do you research and you will find the answers you are looking for. I have used over 10 skimmers and viewed as many so I think I have a good idea which skimmers work well and which doesn’t. How am I defending short Deltec skimmer?? Just plain fact that a shorter skimmer will generally pull in more air so that is why deltec make short skimmers with bigger tubes, that is why they cost so much. Why do you think, bubble king, h&s have short skimmers?? Yes ,all top line skimmers are expensive and so is a Porsche, When comparing skimmers you can’t go by manufactures ratings, you have to compare by size, so when you do this then you will get a fair price comparison. What tests proved this? Get an air meter and test, I have done this and the Deltec does pull in far more air than most skimmers. So, I therefore conclude that either, the Aquamedic 5000 skimmer(s) that one must presume Reef has observed in action and from which he has formed his opinions with respect to bubble size and quantity, was/were faulty, or that my skimmer, plus the identical one I maintain on another tank, are, for some unexplained reason, exceptions. I am not saying that the aquamedic 5000 skimmer is faulty; they do work however they don’t work as well as they should due to being too high for the pumps they run. The pumps are too small for the height of the skimmer, Jansens have the same skimmer and it does not skim that great. Aquamedic have changed all the pumps to oceans runners as they make the skimmers in china so they can compete in the middle market And at the end of the day is overskimming any good for a tank, who knows? So true I myself have been running a Queen skimmer & my corals are still very colorful. Your last photos did not show any great colour, where are the pics and proof.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 Stevea, your comments on how crap the small in-tank Aquamedic turboflotor skimmers are prompted me to go out straight away and buy one In fact, I just went to the Jansens sale and picked up two of them "miniflotors". At $15 each you cant really complain and if they dont work, a $30 investment is like having a few beers at the pub, easily done and you dont think twice about it I plan on using both on a small tank later either as a nano or breed clowns with. There was only one left and all the other "cheap" skimmers were gone There were other aquamedic and prizm skimmers but they were in the hundreds still. Incidentally I also bought another grunty magnet ($7) and nice hardback book on angelfishes ($3) so urge anyone around that area pop in and get some reasonably cheap deals. Back to the skimmer, someone needs to provide some hardcore evidence rather than opinions here. Its all personal opinion rather than scientific proof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted July 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 there was a good article on RC mag a few months back about skimmers. There is little doubt that the name-brand expensive skimmers like Deltec (hey I use one!) and bubble king etc are good skimmers. Infact I think it is safe to say they are better than most other skimmers. I think if you look around this is a fact. Now the tricky bit, how to say it without getting flamed... Have you heard of the perato principle? The 80/20 rules. Reef mentioned a porche, which is a great way to start. Now a Porchse may cost say $150,000.00, a WRX-STI may cost $75,000.00. Now the porchse is faster, but its twice the cost. Is it twice as fast? Nope. Is it worth twice as much? Depends on weather that extra 10% of performance is worth it to you. Thats where the whole queen vs. Aquamedic vs. Deltec stuff is interesting. For say $2000.00 are you going to get a better result with 1 Deltec, 2 Aquamedics or 6 Queens? It comes down to value for money. You won't argue it because value is subjective and will be different for all of us. One of my staff owns 2 Fererri's, I think he is insane, but thats no ones business but his. Is his fererri better than my Toyota? Almost definitaly, is it worth the exta cost, not to me, but obviously to him. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 Its all personal opinion rather than scientific proof. They started to do testing on various skimmers in the states and it has not progressed much, they tested about 6 skimmers and are still looking to test another 20 or so. Hard to get scientific proof and experience with various skimmers is a very good indicator to judge which is a good skimmer. My comments are not an opinion, they are based on experience using various skimmer and feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveA Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 For say $2000.00 are you going to get a better result with 1 Deltec, 2 Aquamedics or 6 Queens? You point me to two Aquamedic 5000 tall double pump jobbies for $2000 and I will buy them. Unfortunately, I think you would be lucky to get a single new one for that price. I haven't tried out a whole lot of different skimmers as I have had no need to. Yes, experience is important, and based on my experience over many years with these machines, I would not hesitate to use one again should the need arise. I have found that as long as you clean out the air inlet tubes regularly (something Jansen's were unaware of when I pointed it out to one of them a couple of years ago) an amply sufficient quantity of bubbles at the correct size is produced. The only way to be sure tho, is to stick different, but theoretically equivalent, skimmers on the same tank and let them fight it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 I am not saying that the aquamedic 5000 skimmer is faulty; they do work however they don’t work as well as they should due to being too high for the pumps they run. I have used over 10 skimmers and viewed as many so I think I have a good idea which skimmers work well and which doesn’t. I agree that I also think I have a good view on it, but I have no DATA to back it up...... They started to do testing on various skimmers in the states and it has not progressed much, they tested about 6 skimmers and are still looking to test another 20 or so. Hard to get scientific proof and experience with various skimmers is a very good indicator to judge which is a good skimmer. My comments are not an opinion, they are based on experience using various skimmer and feedback. Even those tests are laughable from a scientic perspective.... chemical engineering labs run fractionaters for lab experiments, the science is very well understood... The issue is that none of the vendors provide any usefull DATA about there skimmers apart from recommended flow and tank size, and no inklings on there methodology to obtain these numbers.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 The only way to be sure tho, is to stick different, but theoretically equivalent, skimmers on the same tank and let them fight it out. That would give you the winner, but not necessarily the science of why one was better then the other...... science is about testing a hypothesis not comparison and ranking, we should in theory know the winner and why before we run the experiement! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 methodology to obtain these numbers.... Many companies dont as they just add a pump and hope that it will work, The better skimmers do get tested and it takes many test to work out the correct air/water ratio. Most companies cant even tell you how much air is pulled into the skimmer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetskisteve Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 I have used over 10 skimmers and viewed as many so I think I have a good idea which skimmers work well and which doesn’t. TRUE but where are the other 9??? Did you sell the ones that you werent happy with? Also ask Cookie or PC100 about my coral colors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 no DATA to back it up...... You dont always need data to back it up as you can judge it on airflow, bubble size, water mixing ratio, redox of tank, and the amount of waste removed in the cup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 I agree Reef that Deltec are dam good skimmers and they do provide quite a bit of marketing info, but no real data about how skimming falls off if you have say too much water flowing through the skimmer..... so without the data i wonder how it was obtained? lacking the data makes me think they have just choosen a few values that seem about right! maybe not with deltec but certainly with some copy skimmers... not saying they will not skim, just that their is no way of comparing them from a brochure or even a price comparison with efficiency data, cost of operation etc etc then there is the whole beckett vs needlewheel issue... which one is best if operational costs are not important (its generally accpeted that it takes more power to run a becket unit then a needlewheel system....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 You dont always need data to back it up Data is needed to support claims that one is Better then another..... especially when you supply one of those products, I know you are in a difficult position of owning, using and SUPPLYING deltec... You may believe and may be right that deltec is a very good, maybe best skimmer... but as a supplier...... you have to provide data to back up any claims that its the best..... as a hobiest feel free to make your observations available but please as a supplier acknowledge you are making claims about a product for which your only have personal opinion and observations to back up..... I personally can't see why H&S skimmers could be less supierat all, considering they use the same pumps exactly and have the same tube sizes etc etc.... and I also really like the theory behind the big dual becket units popular in the us and very popular with shops in the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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