Iron facts in case you're wondering...

[lduncan]

I am really starting to think that you must test not just the water , but rate of iron release in zeo AND iron in skimmate and carbon export....

just imagine if it leaches 100ug per day, but the uptake via bacteria is almost 100ug.... and there metabolism is highly regulated by iron....... in fact perhaps the bacteria are the feedback loop

Layton?

Exactly! This is the fundamental difference between the Lars analysis and Habib's. Lars measured loss from the rocks. Habib I believe measured iron levels in the water. It's the reason why I said Habib's tests were less sophisticated. Not because the tests were inaccurate. They just don't account for all the iron added to the system.

What if there where bacteria living on the surface of the zeo that needed both phosphate ions and Fe irons to live and mulitply.... the iron has left the zeo but is bound with the bacteria now, and WILL not show on your water coloumn test!

Yes.

wasp would be right, simply adding iron is not the answer... because perhaps zeo does not simply release riron, perhaps it is taken from the zeo bacterially!

It is highly likely that iron is released bacterially, in addition to chemical disassociation.

Layton

[RnB]

layton - i edited last bit in, whjat about the ammount of Fe?

[lduncan]

the only "problem" i have with this is the HUGE ammount of iron that the used tested zeolith lost on average per day.. I do not have any clue if the bialogical process i have postulated above could use that much Fe

The numbers are only huge relative to NSW concentrations. Iron can often be limiting in grow of bacteria and other organisms in the ocean (and by extension tanks), as phosphate is usually in plentiful supply. So it is likely that the surface area of the substrate plays a role in how much bacteria can colonise, and therefore the rate at which the iron can be released. As far as numbers go, i don't know. But bacteria have developed efficient means of extracting iron.

Layton

[wasp]

the only "problem" i have with this is the HUGE ammount of iron that the used tested zeolith lost on average per day.. I do not have any clue if the bialogical process i have postulated above could use that much Fe

????????? need big help her other wise theory out da door.

Can't help with that last bit Peter I wouldn't know. But don't throw your theory out yet, some good ideas there.

I'm just wondering how HUGE this claimed HUGE amount is though. I know most zeovit tanks have reasonably normal amounts of iron in the water column. Perhaps more than many tanks though, which are sometimes iron starved. Hence algae growth when iron is added, if it is the limiting nutrient.

[reef]

I recommend everyone get the issues of THE CORAL mag as it covers lots of this stuff under -Nutrients in the reef aquarium. Great articles.

Here is a very interesting paragraph discussing the Redfield ration

The Redfield ratio refers to the ration of carbon, nitrogen and phosphate atoms in the dry matter of an organism.

Insufficient phosphate resulting in phosphate limitation is almost always deadly.

A coral will attempt to capture as much particulate material from the water as possable, to satisfy its phosphorus needs. This is the reason why polyps are usually exposed. If the coral doesn’t succeed in satisfying its phosphorus needs, it will literally eat itself.

This usually begins at the base of the coral in order to keep the bleached, yet healthy, upper coral tissue alive.

Anyway might be a bit of the subject but I thought it very interesting.

[lduncan]

I know most zeovit tanks have reasonably normal amounts of iron in the water column.

How do you know this?

Layton

[wasp]

Sounds good Reef, that is my own theory on TN also.

[wasp]

How do you know this?

Layton

As prevoiusly stated, there is a method used by some of the more advanced zeovit users to gauge iron. Trouble is, I doubt it will be accurate enough for a man with high standards like yourself Layton .

However, some zeovit users actually dose iron seperately to their tanks if required, and use this method to gauge wether they have enough iron or not, so they know wether to dose.

[lduncan]

As prevoiusly stated, there is a method used by some of the more advanced zeovit users to gauge iron. Trouble is, I doubt it will be accurate enough for a man with high standards like yourself Layton .

However, some zeovit users actually dose iron seperately to their tanks if required, and use this method to gauge wether they have enough iron or not, so they know wether to dose.

Edited

Seawater levels are low enough to require expensive equipment to test. I wonder how they do it when NSW levels are around 0.000006 ppm?

Layton

[wasp]

If you are going to ask stupid questions and be an outright jerk, don't come to me for a serious answer.

I'm not here to humor you.

[lduncan]

I apologise. I've edited my post. It was meant in humour.

Layton

[cracker]

Hey, WASPO, Did ya get bored or something....!!

Good to see you back!

:lol:

[wasp]

Hi Craig

Bored? Nah not really!

Just thought that from the first post on, the thread contains 1/2 truths presented as facts, jumbled in with some correct info and it's all hard to tell which is which.

Decided the best plan would be to not respond, so the whole thing will drift off into oblivion, where it belongs.

Cheers.

[lduncan]

Who warned you? I am quite happy for you to quote me to try and find inconsistencies. It may actually force you to carefully read what i have written, which would not be a bad thing. Who knows something may fall into place. You can PM me if you don't feel comfortable posting them for all to see.

wasp, I'm still waiting for this. Like I said, post it here, or pm me. What are these half truths? They are all facts.

Layton

[reef]

from RC

The zeolite used for the reef aquarium hobby is a clinoptilolite, characterized by strong ammonia affinity and only minor calcium affinity. All other zeolites used in the fresh water hobby strongly adsorb calcium... not really good for marine tanks.

However, when te clinoptilolit adsorbs ammonia, bacteria can simply nitrify the ammonia to generate nitrate (oxic surface), which is further denitrified within the molecular sieve of the zeolite (anoxic inner surface).

Ammonia adsorption is the key why the current within a zeolit filter must be high, otherwise bacteria would'nt have any chance to catch any dissolved inorganic nutrient.

As these clinoptilolites also contain iron and manganese, we have discussed whether iron and manganese dissolve in seawater and bind orthophosphate in the water column. These metal-phosphates might then be skimmable. But this hypothesis is still unprooved. However. when you put zeolite in the water, your aquarium water gets cristal clear within 24 hours. I think, that's due to the iron/manganese release and subsequent skimming of metal-phosphate colloids. But as I said, that's an unprooved hypothesis.

Zeovit is a product name, not a specific zeolite. Zeovit ist the clinoptilolite, zeofood is a growth medium for heterotrophic bacteria with ammonium acetate as carbon source for heterotrophic bacterial nutrition, enriched with amino acids and vitamins, and the zeobac bacteria T. Pohl sells might be Paracoccus denitrificans (because these are commonly sold as aquarium bacteria in Germany). That's it with zeovit.

You can also combine zeolites with vodka. The zeolite works independently from any carbon source you add to the water, because the main function of the zeolite is to adsorb ammonia.

[RnB]

I congratulate all of you for staying at the table and playing nicely with the toys....... I am having more faith in this FNZAS community every day........

great discussion, Reef that RC post sounds a great "theory" very elegant...

I can also see the merits of bombers BB tanks, and high flow and massive wet skimming, just another way to remove the organics before they break down.... I can see why he believes that Zeovit is more of an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff solution........

BB are not for everyone however...

and i am not judging anyone who is using zeo systems!

[lduncan]

Still waiting for wasp to apologise though.

Layton

[RnB]

its a test match, a little bit of blind side action to be expected!