why has my tank started looking dirty

[Brianemone]

my tank over the last little while seems to be taking on a brownish hue

im not sure if its just because the glass is a little dirtier or what but i only really noticed when i looked at an old pic

ill post a current pic tonight

[Control]

If it is not algae related, the Redox Potiential could be low.

Do you have an oxygin test kit or the means to measure Redox Potiential.

Is your skimmer pulling more or less out than normal.

Aaron.

[Brianemone]

skimmers doing the same its always done, never even seen a oxygen test kit before.

heres a pic of it at the moement

all i can think is that its a combination of the corraline on the glass and the flatworms on the rocks

[chimera]

your tank is not that old though is it brian? about 9 months? if so, probably just a normal phase

[reef]

I would say that you have more nutrients in your tank as you have been adding more coral thus increasing the bioload.Your acros are quite brown which could indicate high nutrients.

Flatworms is another sign of high nutrients.

Might have to upgrade the skimmer or add some media that will remove nutrients

[Control]

There are plenty of oxygen kits out there.

If you get one make sure it can measure up to 100% in salt water.

Most of them are for ponds and swimming pools.

I just use the ORP on my AquaController to tell me if I have a problem.

If it drops the water will lose that lovely clear look.

There are many ways to increase the ORP in your tank, and many things that can cause a drop.

If the oxygen drops an increase in organics in the water is most likely but you wont notice an increase in skimming because the lower oxygen level will lower the performance of the skimmer no mater how good it is.

Are you using an oxygen reactor to increase the oxygen and help the skimming. There could be something wrong with the way you are running it.

This is just one possability.

Aaron.

[chimera]

Redox is another poorly understood measurement in the hobby. Redox is measured with an electrode, very much like pH is measured with an electrode. Just as electrode pH measurements are very much dependent on a properly functioning and calibrated electrode, true redox measurements are even more dependent on function and calibration of the electrode. Unfortunately, redox calibrators do not have the stability characteristic of pH calibrators. While accuracy and precision are dependent on electrode function, many hobbyists have the natural inclination to assume that digital read-outs are highly accurate, regardless of the condition of the electrode.The assumption behind redox measurements is that organics depress redox and the removal of organics raises redox. All organics are assumed to be harmful. High redox is associated with oxygenation and good water quality. In fact, redox is a measure of the ratio or equilibrium between oxidizing and reducing substances in the water. It does not address the issue of whether these oxidants or reductants are harmful or beneficial. The underlying assumption is that oxidants are good, reductants are bad. Redox measurements can be useful if they are made reliably and the aquarists is aware of what can alter measurements without necessarily reflecting a decline or improvement in water quality. The addition of strong oxidizing agents, such as ozone, peroxide, permanganate, persulfate, or hypochlorite, will produce an immediate rise in redox of themselves, and this has no particular benefit. Ultimately, these oxidants will oxidize something oxidizable and that may be of benefit, but the benefit was not reflected by the initial rise of redox from the oxidants themselves.

Likewise, the addition of reductants, such as vitamin C, other vitamins, amino acids, some nutrients, dechlorinating or ammonia removing compounds, will cause a drop of redox, but this does not reflect a decline in water quality. Even innocent fluctuations, such as pH, alkalinity, or temperature rise, will cause a drop in redox. Day or night, feeding, filtering media, water changes, all of these have innocent effects that are not faithfully reflected by redox changes. High nitrates are undesirable, yet nitrates will cause an upward swing in redox. Redox measurements are a tool. Used intelligently they can be helpful, used compulsively they can be dangerous. Provided an aquarium is well oxygenated and well maintained with water changes and some form of chemical treatment such as skimming and organic filtration, it is more likely that damage will be caused by too high a redox than by too low a redox, usually because someone feels compelled to raise redox by adding some strong oxidizing agent. Using a redox meter is a lot like investing in stocks. If you follow the normal ups and downs too closely, you will probably end up losing it all. It is very possible to maintain a successful reef aquarium without ever taking a single redox measurement

And you thought I came up with that...

[reef]

why have a oxygen reactor if you have a skimmer?? dont they do the same thing.

I find measuring redox is just a quide to water quality. a tank with a redox of 400 is no better with a tank measuring 250.

My tank is currently 400 without ozone. but who knows if the probe is ok.

[chimera]

speaking of ozone, food for thought...

Ozone is a very unstable triatomic form of oxygen and is a very powerful oxidizer. It is often recommended for use with skimming. In freshwater, ozone oxidizes organic material and ultimately breaks down to free diatomic molecular oxygen. In sea water, however, ozone reacts instantly (microseconds!) not only with organics, but first with iodide, bromide, and chloride ions to form hypoiodite, hypobromite, hypochlorite (bleach!), also iodine and bromine. The latter two are just as bad as chlorine. Ozone also reacts with available manganese, iron, magnesium, and even calcium ions and depletes them from solution. Ozone is non-discriminating and destroys useful amino acids, vitamins, and other deliberately added nutrients as well as the undesirable organics. Ozone cannot escape into the tank itself, being too short-lived, but its byproducts, predictable (bleach) and unpredictable (what did that unidentified organic released by that anemone incompletely break down to?) can. With all the proper caveats in place, ozone can be used safely, but is it worth it?

and you thought I thought of that too?

[reef]

Well i quess that is why no modern reef aquarium uses ozone.

[chimera]

well you would certainly hope not after reading that

[Control]

Why have you bought ozone into this. Its not an issue and no one has suggested its use. The issue i made was Redox Potiental.

Many people have made similler arguments as to the use of protien skimmers but we still use them.

I can easily find systems on the net that use, or dont use it.

And have, and or show the same, and differant results.

redox calibrators do not have the stability characteristic of pH calibrators

That is very misleading.

Not all of them have single point calibration. And the fact is that half of the PH metres have single point calibration. Alot of them have 2 point calibration just like the better PH metres. The AquaController2 has 2 point calibration, Never bye one with single point calibrtion.

The ORP is calibrated in Quinhydrone saturated solutions of PH4 for the low point and PH7 for the high. This is very accurate.

it is more likely that damage will be caused by too high a redox than by too low a redox,

To high (above 450mv) is not a good idea.

To low (below 280mv) will cause the system to slowly collapse.

Likewise, the addition of reductants, such as vitamin C, other vitamins, amino acids, some nutrients, dechlorinating or ammonia removing compounds, will cause a drop of redox, but this does not reflect a decline in water quality. Even innocent fluctuations, such as pH, alkalinity, or temperature rise, will cause a drop in redox. Day or night,

If someone is adding supplements or have "dechlorinating or ammonia removing compounds" in there system in high enough levels to affect a Redox reading then thier tank has some serious problems.

Only PH and Temperature will do that.

This is not a problem, The aquaController2 has a program in it to cater for this in it's readings. This feature can be turn on and off.

Most half decent controllers have this feature.

It is very possible to maintain a successful reef aquarium without ever taking a single redox measurement

Yes it is. But;

Usaully the first sign of a collapse in a filter systems and/or tanks that is not related to thing that can be supplement is a sudden drop in Redox Potential, then the oxygen level. This will always happen before you see any physical signs. After That the animals will show signs follwed by the inviroment.

I would rather know about any problems in that order, and have a chance to do something about it before it affects the animals.

I have done so for ten years and have no intention to change.

And if you do use ozone as I always have the Redox must be controlled.

why have a oxygen reactor if you have a skimmer?? dont they do the same thing.

No they don't.

A reactor uses alot of pressure to oxidize the water. a skimmer uses pressure to mix them which degasses at the same time and is not as affective at oxidation after the skimmer if they were you wouldn't have to put baffles in your sump because the oxygen would have oxydized with the water.

Reefs have well over 70% oxidation. the fact that your Redox reading is good does't mean that you have a high saturated oxygen level.

a tank with a redox of 400 is no better with a tank measuring 250.

250 is starting to get a bit low. A stable tank would not go that low without a cause.

My tank is currently 400 without ozone.

Who said and where is it written that you need ozone to to get a Redox of 400.

but who knows if the probe is ok.

That all depend on you and how you look after it. You can get checking fluids to make sure it is calibrated properly.

The point is that Redox should not make sudden drops and if it does you will get a sudden drop in saturated oxygen as well.

This will inturn affect the systems stability.That is all that i was saying.

Aaron.

[reef]

250 is starting to get a bit low. A stable tank would not go that low without a cause.

My tank was always about 250 and if you look at the photos about 2 months ago it is hardly slowly collapsing.

The point is that Redox should not make sudden drops and if it does you will get a sudden drop in saturated oxygen as well.

That is a good sign that something is wrong when your redox drops by a lot. good point

Control , do you have any pics of your tank, interested to see how all the acropora and hard corals look with long term use ozone.

My experience with ozone is that coral will not do as well and long term use of ozone is totally unnecessary in a reef tank.

However there might be a benefit for short term use.

[Brianemone]

the acropora are brown because thats how i got them

they are actually starting to colour up

[Brianemone]

i think your right about the nutirents though reef, with my new tank ill have a better skimmer running and i've cut down on my feeding recently

with the sump on the new tank ill be running purigen and ill look at a phosphate remover to. problem is with this tank im limmited to what i can and cant do

[chimera]

Why have you bought ozone into this. Its not an issue and no one has suggested its use. The issue i made was Redox Potiental

I realise this, hence why I prefixed the comment with "food for thought" as reef mentioned ozone. Was just pointing out it's predominantely negative effects for anyone who was unaware.

(BTW, what I posted was from Dr. Leo G. Morin (PhD) owner of SeaChem Laboratories, Inc. (originally an associate professor in the School of Medicine, Emory University, Atlanta then became full time operator of Seachem. Since then he passed away and his son took over, Dr. Greg Morin)

I am personally not knowledgable on the subject of redox, therefore cannot and wont argue any of the points above. However the post above hopefully maintains some form of open mindedness on the subject - none of which "markets" seachems products - so perhaps not biased in anyway. Just some interesting comments I thought.

[Control]

My tank was always about 250 and if you look at the photos about 2 months ago it is hardly slowly collapsing.

250 isan't much higher than our on shorelines have and is nowhere near the level of a reef.

The most likely reason for your tank not suffer with a low Redox would be that your skimmer was good enough to keep any resulting side affects under control. This is hardly an ideal solusion.

Control , do you have any pics of your tank, interested to see how all the acropora and hard corals look with long term use ozone.

I am still trying to find them. Please bear with me on that.

After we moved I had to put them all in one of the test tanks in the garage. The front glass broke and I lost everything.

The tanks ran for ten years without crashing once and I was deliberately over feeding them at times to see what would happen.

My 6' tank is running on very basic gear at the moment and only has the following in it;

2 x Perc Clown

I x Manderin

1 x Blue Tang

1 x 6 line wrasse

1 x Hammer head Coral

3 x leather

2 x Mushroom

1 x Anemony

I have no intention of getting anymore until I put the rest of the system back together. There isan't much point in putting a Piture up as there I isn't much to look at. It's a mess If it wasn't for the ozone helping thr stupid little skimmer that is on it everything would be dead.

Reef.

Just out of curiosity what is the longest period of time that your tank has run without crashing.

And did you ever come to an accurate reason as to why it happened.

Aaron.

[Aquatopia]

Interesting comments on this and some of it is gone over my head. Paul Talbot of Majestic Aquariums over in Sydney suggests on his video of removing the skimmer cup and just using it as an o2 reactor !! Not sure I agree - but yes, they do the same thing. He also said sometimes you get discolouration in the water and you can clean it up by using (washed) activated carbon for a day or so to "polish" the water. Although i know this doesnt address the cause. Its hard to suggest without knowing the full array of water parameters.

[reef]

Reef.

Just out of curiosity what is the longest period of time that your tank has run without crashing.

And did you ever come to an accurate reason as to why it happened.

What do you mean by crashing??, My tank has never crashed, apart from some minor problems which happen sometimes.

Cant really work out what caused some of the coral to bleach, but i put it down to overuse of carbon.