kclarke Posted November 2, 2002 Report Share Posted November 2, 2002 I've been told that undergravel filters are not good and are a special No-no for Discus. I've since bought a Rena Filstar xP2 (was told that was the right size for my tank). Also told by the aquarium owner that after approx 1 month that I could turn off the undergravel filter, pull out the tubes, etc. and cover it with the gravel. I'm a little nervous to do this and want some advice. When I got the canister filter home and set it up, I noticed on the instructions that the xP2 is not biological (even though I was told it was, it is the larger one the xP3 that contains the bio). The cost of the filter was $300 (aus) and now I'm not sure whether to turn off the U/G or not. The canister has been running for 1 1/2 months. The other question is: If and when I do turn the UG off, what is the best way to get rid of it without too much gunk circulating in the discus tank? My discus (4 now) are doing very well and I don't want to upset the balance. Any advice would be gratefully recieved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted November 2, 2002 Report Share Posted November 2, 2002 Hi Karen, U/G filters are designed to draw water through the substrate which in time will become covered in good bacteria that will consume much of the wastes produced in your tank. Turning your U/G filter off will possibly kill all this good bacteria leading to an explosion of dead bacteria that will certainly give you problems. Once working and established they should be left running continuously and only switched off for short periods if really needed, for servicing and such. This applies to all types of filters, and is the reason you don't clean your filter too scrupulously as if you make it "too clean" you will kill off all the good bacteria, and in effect be back to square one with your bio cycle. As far as them being a "No No" for Discus, I think you would have to convince a lot of Discus keepers that have been using them for decades The "well informed" person at the shop obviously didn't explain the reason for this statement. Many Aquarists are against U/G filters as they say it effects plant growth, but all my tanks are bursting with plants, and all have U/G filters... I wouldn't set a tank up without one, and have yet to strip a tank because of U/G/F failure. JMHO. Regards, Bill (Pegasus) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted November 2, 2002 Report Share Posted November 2, 2002 I have never had problems with the good old U/G filter either. I think someone was just trying to make a sale perhaps. Can't see why they would single out discus as not liking them either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted November 2, 2002 Report Share Posted November 2, 2002 Well I have always had u/g filters for my tanks (whole 4-5 years ). The discus are doing fine, I also run a fluval 304 (so guess I amover filtered LOL) However the discus are doing fine with u/g filter in their tank. I was thinking of removing it and existing only on the Fluval 304, however that was only because i am thinking of re landscaping and removing the u/g filter would give me a little more room. Plants growing well with u/g filter too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclarke Posted November 2, 2002 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2002 Thanks, I'm glad now that I didn't turn it off without asking you guys. I must admit that I was worried about it. Now with the UG going and also the canister, I guess I should have enough filtration. Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted November 2, 2002 Report Share Posted November 2, 2002 Unless you are trying to make a Takashi Amano style aquarium, leave your undergravel alone. You actually have no choice anyway. If the filter you have does not have biological filtration, then you need the UGF. If you change to, or add a filter that has biological media, you would then be able to turn off the UGF. It will need 2-3 months of running to be 100% mature. The filter should also turn over the entire aquarium volume 2-6 times an hour. If you ever do turn it off, the simplest way is just to pull the tubes out and leave the UGF plates as-is. You'll also need to do an immediate and very thorough gravel clean. All the muck thats accumulated will need to be removed to stop a bacterial outbreak. This could easily amount to a 75%+ water change. I'd leave it as it is. Discus don't care about UGF / Canister filters. All they care about is water quality. As long as the filter method you use keeps the water really clean they will be happy. UGF's work ok with plants too. You won't get spectacular growth rates, but a nicely maintained planted tank is very possible with them. Some plants do not like UGF's but the list is small and there are plenty of other types of plants that work very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john1 Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 Hi Warren I am a bit confused now. You say it takes about 2 to 3 months to 100% mature. Does that mean if I start a new system I have to wait 2 to 3 months?. Next you say the filter should turn over the volume of water 2 to 6 times per hour. My outside filter turns my 125l aquarium around 10 times per hour. Now tell me please how much an ordinary airdriven u/g filter turns around in 1 hour? Please, please explain. Bill(Pegasus) said the whole substrate is the biological filter. Correct. according to a LFS, he even went as far as saying that the tankwalls, and other items fill with bacteria. Now then, why do people spend up to $550 on filters if the good trusty ol' u/g does all the filtration required. The poor fellow, not only just spent a fortune on an Eheim for instance, but has a considerable outlay on all the media required to run that filter. Biomedia, charcoal, etc. All the spending could be avoided by just using a cheap u/g. No more spending on anything. Doesn't even have to be cleaned. I get more and more confused. Got to go now to take a few headache tablets. Head is spinning. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interfecus Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 UG filters are what I use but some people condemn them because they are unforgiving when it comes to cleaning. UG filters should be cleaned out at least weekly or there is a possibility of detritus getting under the plates where it can't be vaccumed. This can cause harmful bacterial blooms. As long as you clean them often enough there is no problem though. Remember that UGFs often seem cleaner than they are and be careful though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqua Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 UG filters should be cleaned out at least weekly or there is a possibility of detritus getting under the plates where it can't be vaccumed. This can cause harmful bacterial blooms. As long as you clean them often enough there is no problem though. Remember that UGFs often seem cleaner than they are and be careful though. So this means that I *have* to go and buy the replacement filter-thingees every week or so? This could prove to be very expensive... What's the timeframe on a side-mounted filter to be replaced?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 You have replacement filter thingees on an UG? The only things I can think of on UG is the new ones have useless little charcoal bits that sit on the top of the uplifts. These can be removed. If you have a side mounted filter with sponges, you do not replace them, you just carefully clean them out in used aquarium water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqua Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 You have replacement filter thingees on an UG? The only things I can think of on UG is the new ones have useless little charcoal bits that sit on the top of the uplifts. These can be removed. LMAO YAY for other people using my lingo! Yeah, I have a Hagen Goldfish bowl filter with a replaceable filter cartridge... I think the replacement heads come in packs of 2 for about $5.00.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john1 Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 Hi Interfecus says UG filters should be cleaned out at least weekly or there is a possibility of detritus getting under the plates where it can't be vaccumed. I have never ever heard that under gravel filter should be cleaned weekly. The only way one can sucessfully clean an u/g filter is by taking it apart. That means removal of all gravel. Otherwise you cannot get the plate out. It also means you have to remove all plants also. You can't do one without the other. Almost an impossible task. I would not do that even once every 6 months. Usually they stay where the are for years. I have heard a lot before, but this takes the cake. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqua Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 The only way one can sucessfully clean an u/g filter is by taking it apart. That means removal of all gravel. Otherwise you cannot get the plate out. It also means you have to remove all plants also. You can't do one without the other. Almost an impossible task. On my U/g filter, the filter itself sits on top of a little stem, which is where the bubbles come through etc. I can see the filter - it's got some white stuff at the top & bottom, and some black (charcoal?) in the middle. The filter is removable, as I have seen replacement heads for sale... Does this mean there's another type of U/g filter?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john1 Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 Hi Aqua I believe you misunderstood. Or at least I did. I have to appologize to you. I will try to enlighten you. An undergravel filter consists of a bottom plate with slots, which are smaller than the gravel, 1 or more riserstems which contain the aistone which pushes the water upward. Years ago, the riserstem was an ordinary plastictube, bent at the top, to let the filtered, pushed up water back into the aquarium. Now you buy them with a totally useless attachment. A cagetype which contains charcoal. the amount of charcoal in it would not be sufficiently useful for a Vegimite jar. A sales gimmick. By cleaning an u/g filter, one means total disassembly of the bottom plate . There is no other way. So one usually does not touch (clean) it I hope that helped John. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 Well I decided to keep the u/g filter in the discus tank and even set up one in the 55 Litre hexagon angel tank (which I set up over Christmas using seeded water and seeded Shark II canister filter)The angel fish are loving the depth of this tank. I would not get a taller one though. u/g filters have the plates which sit on bottom of the tank, gravel sits on top of these. I have never taken them out to clean. I normally do a light vacuum of the gravel when I water change. The uplift tubes have a tube within them with an air stone on the end which sits near the plates. At the top of the up lift tubes are cartridges of either zeolite(white) or carbon(black) The air stone can be taken out and rinsed at each water change, as can the cartridges. (u can do without the cartridges especially if you have another filter running). Aqua my understanding is that the u/g filter works in that the bacteria live on/in among the stones etc and are kept alive by the water flow that is created by the u/g filter. So sit back n relax and enjoy the fishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 I have kept fish for over 25 years (I'm old!!) and used UGF for many of those years. I have NEVER cleaned out an UG filter, particularly not weekly. This would negate the reason for having one as it would destroy the bacteria. I would do a light gravel clean whenever I did a water change (about once a month if I got around to it). As for lifting and moving the rocks - never done it. Apart from a few cases of white spot when I first began fishkeeping, I have never had a problem with diseased or dying fish en masse. I do not even have any medications. I think we have been confused. The thing you are referring to is the useless bit now attached at the top of new filters. You still have a plate UNDER the gravel don't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john1 Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 Hi Caryl I think we have been confused. The thing you are referring to is the useless bit now attached at the top of new filters. You still have a plate UNDER the gravel don't you? I don't believe anyone can be that stupid to have an u/g filter without the plate. The riserstem would surely fall over. :lol: john Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 I have come across people referring to their UGF and on viewing, it turned out to be a box filter. This is what I meant, that Aqua may actually have a box filter, not that their UG uplift is not attached to a plate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john1 Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 Hi Caryl You are probably right. It is unfortunate that somd LFS don't educate people a bit more. They sell a complete outfit to a newcomer and expect them to anderstand all. Some people by a tank etc. without prior knowledge. But to some LFS's a quick sale is more important than the customer. Here in Australia we use a word "thingamibob", which could be anything. It is used by people who don't know the terminology. Can you imagine someone comes to you for help. He/she says "the thingamibob on the right is bigger than the thingamibob on the left." You would not know what he/she is talking about. everyone has a right to start a new hobby. And not everyone is conversent with certain terms/names. So it is firstly up to the person who sells the equipment, to inform the customer of all the names, terms etc. And that is what we are her for. To help others who might not be as fortunate as we are regarding terms, names etc. But for some reason there are people who are affraid to ask simple questions. No one should be ashamed of ignorance. Everyone started once. You, I and even Pegasus. Pegasus knows a hell of a lot But even he knew nothing before he started. No one is born with an Einstein brain. I mean I was, but that is another story :lol: Frequent a few german speaking forums. I am totally lost with their terminology. A few words which I did not know, I either misspellt, wrong terminology, I haven't written german in nearly 40 years, they said"Don't worry" , "say it in english, we are also eager to learn your lingo". It will take me a long time to understand the technical terms in german. So, we all learn something new everyday. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqua Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 I think we have been confused. The thing you are referring to is the useless bit now attached at the top of new filters. You still have a plate UNDER the gravel don't you? Yes, I was referring to the little thing that the bubbles filter through I think that the u/g filter the girl sold me is not right, however, coz it doesn't cover the entirety of the bottom of the bowl... it takes up maybe 2/3 of it, but not quite all.... Seems to be doing the job tho... And I'm sure the fish won't mind, seeing as they're moving house as soon as I do Sorry for any confusion peeps :oops: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 The plate doesn't have to cover the whole base of the tank Aqua, very few will. As long as most of it is covered, as yours is, things will be fine. It is so long since I bought filters and stuff I originally forgot the UGF these days have a cartridge on top of the uplift. Never saw the point in them myself. As I think John said, someone added them as a sales gimmick I guess. The older UGFs with the thin uplifts didn't have an airstone in them either. It wasn't until they started making them with the fatter uplifts that they added the airstone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqua Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 So is there really any point to the little filter-thingee on top? I don't have any other mechanical filtration in my bowl atm... I'm looknig at getting a new tank, and that comes with a side-mounted filter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 The thingees are too small to do much good as far as I am concerned but there may be others who disagree. We all have our own ideas of what works and what doesn't. If you only have white clouds mechanical filtration is not going to be a major requirement but I get the feeling you will go on to other species as the hobby sucks you in :lol: The hang on the back filters (like AquaClear) work really well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted January 5, 2003 Report Share Posted January 5, 2003 I agree Caryl gives good advice. The u/g filters are good Aqua and as said previously they do not need a lot of maintanance (nil). suits me fine When I requested one for the hexagon tank the sales person tried to sell me a small one telling me it was the only hexagon one made. WRONG I went to another pet store and WAHOOO there was the one I wanted, larger, almost twice as big and it fits great. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john1 Posted January 5, 2003 Report Share Posted January 5, 2003 Hi Goldie I don't know about NZ, but here one is advised to by an u/g filter as big as the tank.There is one LFS, I have never seen that before, that shows you even I don't know everything, Have small pieces of under gravel plates. They can be added like a Lego set. So you can add as many as your tank can hold. As far as I know the bigger the better. It should almost cover the entire bottom. Hi Caryl This was not really meant for you. You would get away with a much smaller one due to the fact you have state of the art cannisters. Your tank has been taken care of by them. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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