refugium and sump ideas

[Brianemone]

ive got i pump i can use for that, i was going to use it as my return but i guess i can get a bigger return pump

iwaki on a small tank

seriously though with a closed loop and the return from the sump i think ill only need one seio for extra power in high flow areas

[Ira]

imagine it would also place more back pressure on the pump because of the pressure exerted at the bottom of the tank restricting flow rate?

No, backpressure will be exactly the same.

[Brianemone]

so the reverse block valve is doable??? i need to talk to a plumber i think to see what is available

[chimera]

No, back pressure will be exactly the same

true come to think about it, but only when it's full of water :lol:

still, the reverse syphon effect would mean empty tank vs only the top inch or so assuming no valve to stop back pressure.

[suphew]

No, backpressure will be exactly the same.

Isn't this on his return? If so then there would be plently of extra back pressure if it feeds in the bottom of the tank, only a closed loop will have no back pressure.

I would strongly suggest you dont try a one way valve, it reduces your flow a lot, plus all it will take is 1 snail or a bit of algae to stop it from working. Do you really want to have to test it each night before you go to bed so you can sleep???

How about running your return over the top and down the inside of your overflow box (so you cant see it) then out the bottom, put a small hole in the hose just below the water line so if it syphons when the water gets to the hole it will suck in air and stop the syphon

[Brianemone]

nice idea, id prefer that to a one way valve

props for suphew

[Pies]

Suphew is correct, if its not a closed loop then pressure will depend on the height of the return hole.

Sea Swirl would be a good recomendation for the return pipe, and they are easy to adapt for reverse syphon if you think its nessessary.

Pie

[chimera]

Isn't this on his return? If so then there would be plently of extra back pressure if it feeds in the bottom of the tank, only a closed loop will have no back pressure

that's what i actually thought - and it's been bugging me all day. even drew a picture to clarify it in my own head! its only no back pressure if there is no air in the system - hence like a closed loop.

a 3/4" sea swirl would be ideal for you brian :lol: perhaps overkill on a nano but would still produce wicked water movement.

[Ira]

Do we have to go through this AGAIN? What is this? The 3rd or 4th time? The head will be exactly the same if the outlet is barely below the surface of the water as if it was 2 feet below the water. It's the height from surface of the sump's water to the surface of the tank's water that is important. Go grab a siphon, start it siphoning into a bucket with the hose just below the surface and measure how long it takes to fill the bucket up. Pour the water back in, now push the hose to the bottom of the tank and siphon with the end the same height above the bucket. Guess what? It'll take exactly as long as before. Now dump the bucket on your carpet as punishment for making me go over this again.

[chimera]

so you include the water in the main tank (ie: take a "vertical" column of water above the bulkhead in the bottom of the tank) to the top of the tank and count this as downward pressure into the pipe, then this would make sense. im thinking too much in regards to head height rather than pressure, which are two different things as head is measured to the top of the water line of the main tank - regardless of where it's being pumped back into the tank. still mildly confused :-? is pressure rated this way too?

[Brianemone]

a 3/4" sea swirl would be ideal for you brian perhaps overkill on a nano but would still produce wicked water movement

i still dont get them :-? the just oscilate right?? seems alot to pay

but nice sales pitch anyway

[Ira]

Yeah, pretty much all they are is a motor to rotate a nozzle back and forth 90? degrees. Advantage, you don't lose flow due to having a little turbine or similar in the water flow to rotate the nozzle. Disadvantage, big and expensive.

I'm thinking I might prefer a handful of hydro...Hydor...WHatever nozzles like I got off Chimera on a closed loop. Even cheaper than an OM squirt and a couple of heads for it. Problem is lower flow, only around 1200L per hour per head.

[chimera]

hydroflow. yeah they are pretty cool. work well on low/medium flow closed loop system - i reckon they would be PERFECT on a nano. brian - i put one aside for you as requested ages ago. let me know when you want it, if not let me know and ira can buy it instead if he's interested.

[Brianemone]

nope ill still take it,

so far i have the over flow coming down into the refugium and then through another overflow into the sump. Through the sump/skimmer to the return pump backover and through the overflow (with hole just under water line to prevent reverse syphon.) then down into a spraybar under the main rockwork

would it be best to run the return pipe over the top or through a hole drilled at the appropriate level??

[chimera]

IMO a return over the top is best. if you dont like the position of the return, you can move it. you can also add on a device like a sea-swirl later on if you ever wanted. if it's drilled, you've got to get it right first time.

[Brianemone]

thats what i was planning on doing .

hopefully in getting it all sorted out in my head first i can sketch it up easily and start building

just tested my return pump. viaaqua 3300, its actually got a little more kick than i remember

[chimera]

design some more... and then some more. make everything bigger than you require and restrict it now if necessary. remember once the tank is full - or more in your case aquascaped, you wont want to have to empty to change anything.

[suphew]

IMHO the refugium should at least be after the sump, otherwise all those criters your spending so much time growing will end up in the sump and be taken out the the skimmer instead of in the tank feeding your fish. The ideal place is above the main tank with an overflow so that they dont get munched as they go in the return pump but this is impractical for most.

[chimera]

It's a catch-22 situation really...

BELOW TANK REFUGIUM:

Below tank refugiums usually receive raw feed water from the display. This water is rich in organics from surface tension at the air water interface as well as heavy in stirred up detritus or excess food that gets swept into the overflow. Hence, this design is great for nutrient uptake and removal. Fast growing macroalgae like Chaetomorpha or Caulerpa can utilize these nutrients and convert them into living tissue for easy removal from the system. You will also notice that in dense growths of algae a variety of critters are attracted to this ever-flowing food source. Mini brittle stars, amphipods, copepods, and mysis shrimp are some of the most common ones you will find in amongst the macroalgae growths. Again, these living creatures are there to grab a hold of any available food and convert that into living tissue. While they are unable to use every portion of that food to create tissue and do create some waste products, they are living amongst the macroalgae. In effect, the algae is capable of consuming some of their waste products just the same as the overflowing waste from the display in a symbiotic-like relationship. Additionally, below tank refugiums with their normal multitude of baffles to trap and eliminate bubbles also tend to trap detritus. In effect, these baffles tend to operate as a settling chamber and when the hobbyist routinely siphons out this debris, they further facilitate nutrient export. As you can see, these below display designs operate optimally for nutrient export. And while they do harbor a number and diversity of planktonic lifeforms, to get up into the display they must pass through the return pump. This surely impacts the number of viable specimens that make their way into the display even though the exact amount of impact is debatable. Sperm, eggs, and small larvae could conceivably pass through unharmed, but larger adults are likely to become shredded. Although pulverized, dead crustaceans are still edible just as live, whole ones are, if the intent is a steady supply of live plankton to feed into the display, there are better placement options, which leads me to discuss the next installation option.

ABOVE TANK REFUGIUM:

This design is by far the best for introducing live plankton into the display because they are gently gravity fed into the aquarium from the refugium versus traveling through the pump to make their way into the display. This ensures that both offspring, reproductive material (eggs and sperm), and adults alike can re-colonize the heavily grazed and preyed upon display. For as good as this layout is for plankton production, it unfortunately is not nearly as good for nutrient uptake and removal as the below tank design assuming that the system utilizes both a sump and above tank refugium. In this scenario, the water coming to the refugium from the sump is likely to already be heavily scrubbed of nutrients by the sump’s protein skimmer, by chemical filtration media located there, mechanical filtration, and/or possibly another refugium.

The other drawback to this layout is it is not as easily incorporated into most displays. It can be retrofitted fairly painlessly into tanks that are built into a wall. In these instances, a portion of the return pumps water can be diverted and sent to a secondary aquarium mounted on a secure shelf above the display. Unfortunately, not all of us have setups such as this. Most hobbyists are working with commercially available aquarium and stand kits. This makes creating a seamless appearance of an above tank refugium with a display tank difficult.

BEST OF BOTH WORLDS:

It should not be a great leap in logic to see that combining two refugiums, one above tank and one below tank, will theoretically yield the best results. It just takes some planning and forethought to incorporate both and is not easily retrofitted into existing displays unless you have a considerable amount of room to work with, as is the case with in the wall designs. But, two refugiums also gives you additional options as far as differing the substrates in each or varying the lighting schedules (all subjects that will be discussed in future editions). For instance, the below tank refugium could focus on macroalgae growth while the above tank refugium’s primary goal was generating amphipods, copepods, and mysis shrimp. Or, the below tank refugium could grow macroalgae with a 24/7 lighting schedule while the above tank one could operate without lighting to create a cryptic zone that promotes feather dusters and/or sponges for their filter feeding capacity. Truly, the options are limitless. One only needs to research a little to custom tailor a refugium package that best suits their specific aquatic pets’ needs.

BESIDE MAIN DISPLAY:

There is yet another option when it comes to locating a refugium. One could install it beside the display tank, in effect creating a second smaller display. This is a display in and of itself, so the final appearance is important while plankton generation or nutrient export are secondary concerns. This would be a refugium in the broadest sense of the term. It would simply be a place of refuge for a specimen or species that could not be housed in the main display for whatever reason. One could seek to showcase something unusual, beautiful, or small that would otherwise be lost in the larger display tank. For instance, there are many smaller shrimp that are less bold and would not be as easily observed in a large aquarium but could become a focal point of a smaller display. Harlequin and Sexy shrimp are two that come to mind. Additionally, this smaller display could house a Mantis shrimp that would problematic in the main aquarium, but could be safely housed here. Also, you could design this refugium mostly for the beauty and appreciation of unusual plants and animals, for biotopic displays, or an attempt to build a larger reef ecosystem. For instance, a lagoon for seagrasses, mangroves, urchins, snails, seastars, etc. would be appealing, interesting, and unusual.

These types of refugiums are easy enough to install. Simply get another tank and stand that matches the main display, place them near enough to one another to plumb them to a common sump, and you are done. While you won’t contribute much in the way of plankton generation or nutrient export, you will increase the total gallons of the system, which increases stability. Plus, you have added to the beauty and your personal admiration of your display and there is something to be said for that.

HANG ON BACK:

Hang on back refugiums can fall under either the above tank or below tank category depending on their exact configuration. If the water is pumped from the display into the refugium and allowed to gravity flow back into the aquarium, than it is technically an above tank refugium. On the other hand, there are designs which use a siphon to draw water into the refugium and then have a pump return the water back into the display. These would have to be considered below tank refugiums. Regardless of which type the hang on refugium is, these tend to have additional limitations. They are generally small because weight bearing down on the display aquarium is a real concern. As such, their ability to produce plankton and/or grow macroalgae is restricted. But in my opinion, any refugium is better than none.

Hang on the back refugiums have grown in popularity mainly because they are easy to add to an already running marine aquarium. These refugiums are effective, but limited in size. They can be used to hold a small sand bed, some liverock rubble and various macroalgae for nutrient export. Photo by orion25. Caption by Gene Schwartz

On the positive side, these refugiums are extremely easy to install as long as there is sufficient room between the display and any walls behind it. Also, for smaller aquaria, sumpless systems, or undrilled tanks (I will save you all from my rant against siphon overflows), they are the best solution for incorporating a refugium into the overall system.

You should be able to see now that there is a range of options as far as where to locate a refugium. And hopefully, I have sufficiently laid out the pros and cons of each installation option such that you can make an educated decision as to which one best suits your tank’s needs. And lastly, any refugium is better than none, so decide which location can work for you and get to work.

[Brianemone]

i can definatly see the advantage of the above tank but it just doesnt fit into the design part of my plans , and when it comes to the crunch it to hard to justify an above tank refugium (for now)

[suphew]

It still doesn't really talk about putting the refugium before or after the sump and skimmer. I guess in reality for a lot of us (myself included) the sump and refugium are one and the same anyway?

[chimera]

i could not do this either as i have no room to do it (easily) however my main reasoning for not even considering it was because the main tank would have enough sand/rock to sustain my mandarin (and the rest of the fish). my primary intention of the fuge was to breakdown nutrients. i suppose there is no reason why i can't manually swap substrate between fuge and main tank every few months though!

[Brianemone]

if its a matter of before or after thats easily solved but my sump needs to be bigger than my fuge (due to skimmer size)

[chimera]

either or, IMO I dont think it matters too much. i see plenty of people using fuge before (contrary to the fact that pods make it to the main tank if used after) and plenty of people using it after. it would make more sense to have it after though, especially if you're designing it from scratch now.

[Pies]

Completely dissagree.

I have read countless amounts on this and its counter productive to have the skimmer after the refugium. This is why so many people have above tank small refugiums as some (www.thereefweb.com) have shown that even the return pump can kill a larger proportion of pods/mysidds from the refugium (gets worse the smaller the pump is).

Makes complete sense.

Piemania