Cloudy water

[muddy]

ooops,

might have been looking at the wrong conversation, but anyway, it was a good discussion.

you need to get some ammonia in a bottle, not the cloudy or scented stuff, just good ol ammonia with water, the percentage of ammonia will never be very high, you can't get 100% ammonia, as this stuff is kept as a liquid at minus 36 degrees C and turns into a toxic, corrosive gas upon entry to the atmosphere.

you can cycle everything in a bucket, heaters, filters etc, turn on the heater and an airstone and leave so that eveything has time to warm up, put in your bacteria and then using an eye dropper , put in your ammonia, it won't take much to get to 1ppm, then just let it cycle, it may take a few days, so test every24 hours, when your NH3 is back to 0.0 do it again using the same amount of drops.

when you are clearing 0.0 NH3 in 24 hours, start testing every 12 hours, using the same amount of ammonia, when this is clearing evry 12 hours you may be ready to use everything.

if you cant get to the LFS for your prize pets, don't worry, just keep feeding your bucket.

this is the basics of fishless cycling, it does work, and in any kind of aquarium, if you are starting a marine setup, just setup your water parametres PH, SG, etc, and then go for it, same for ciclids, or goldfish, its not the type of setup that counts or fish, but the nitrogen cycle.

its also good practice with test kits and gives a excellent understanding of the nitrogen cycle and some basic chemistry, i'm sure that anyone would enjoy doing this, and when your fish arrive you can enjoy them without stressing them or yourself .

the LFS won't tell you about this as when your fish die , you think you did something wrong, its not your fault, if nobody tells you about all this stuff, they just want to sell you more fish.

most of all be patiant and research everything.

cheers

muddy

[Shelley]

Thanks Muddy..... at the risk of sounding really dumb...where do I get a bottle of ammonia from? I can see my laundry is going to have a lot more buckets than it has currently (and there are some shelves in there that just about could hold a few fish tanks!)

[Snowman]

I've always cycled my tanks with fish, a couple of small ones to start with and slowly stock up, i reckon its the easiest and most natural way, keep an eye on Ammonia, Nitrite & Nitrate levels and adjust with water changes to suit. I wouldnt be keen on adding Ammonia as its to hard to keep an eye levels, not much chance of 2-3 guppies causing problems in a 3' tank. Thats why i like guppies for cycling, 2-3 for a week then i add 1 every 2 days for 2-3 more weeks (depending on intended fish loading), at the end of that the guppies go back to their own tank and the new tenants move in.

[muddy]

shelley,

you can get ammonia at most supermarkets or a good hardware store.

its great for cleaning glass and floors etc, read the label, it should tell you what is in the bottle, you just want ammonia and water no scented stuff.

if you are starting another tank this way is 100% free of contaminants IE; hydroids, ich and anything else you can mention.

muddy

[Caryl]

I don't think we can use the ammonia in supermarkets as it isn't 'pure' here in NZ.

Cycling with fish is not cruel if done correctly. I haven't had to cycle a tank for years mind you as I just run the new filter in an established tank for a couple of weeks before setting up a new tank.

[muddy]

Kazz

discus fish require different parametres, and most people keep them in a species tank, that is by themselves, i have never kept them, but there are a lot of people who do, gives me an idea , might look into a tank for them

muddy

[Shelley]

Ok i am starting to panic. The water looks gross. I did another 50% change last night because it was so thick with cloudy stuff although the readings were slightly better than they had been. Now i am losing fish. The water is cloudy again. PH 7.4 ammonia 0.6 nitrite 0.05 nitrate 5. I am seriously thinking about moving the fish i have left into tanks that really havent finished cycling yet....and scrubbing this tank from top to bottom and everything in it...and starting the cycle process from scratch (although i worry about splitting the fish between my remaining smaller and still cycling tanks). This is really distressing... i have had these sort of readings for some weeks now and everything seemed to have settled at about that level if anything they are a little lower now. Today I lost my little cory and a dwarf gourami. I have a harlequin swimming upside down and being swept about by the current...there is something seriously wrong with a tank that has been so happy till about a week ago....why? and what do i do about it? Help!

[Snowman]

Hi Shelley, personally i would move the fish into the nearly cycled tank, even just till you get the main tank sorted. Sounds to me like there is possibly some old courgette or cucumber in the tank, maybe in the filter, my tank went cloudy when a bit of cucumber got stuck in the driftwood.

I would get the fish out, drain most of the tank, give everything in there a rinse (possibly leave plants), clean the filter and refill. Run it for a day or two and do large water changes each day.

Does it smell bad, as if something is rotting ?

Hope this helps.

[Shelley]

Thanks snowman I was just lying on the couch...flicking my gaze between coronation street and the tank lol......but currently the tank is more depressing..... and I came to the decision to do exactly what you have just suggested.I was inclined to think it was something to do with the cucumber but thought i might have found it when i did the 80% water change. AND i have been using my test kits so much i have run out of nitrite test...... i will get some more when i go to Christchurch on Thursday. Thanks.

[suphew]

Hi Shelley, I would be careful about cleaning your filter out too much, I would suggest that you take it apart and have a good look through it to make sure there is nothing in there and pick out any larger bits of rubbish then put it back on.

To fix your problem you need to find the root cause, which could be something rotting in the tank, like cucumber, fish food, maybe a plant thats not doing well, or too many fish too soon, a poor water supply?

Once you have minimsed the cause as much as possible you then have to wait for the bacteria in your filter and tank to catch up, this is why cleaning your filter to much isn't a good idea, you will also clean out all the good bacteria.

I wouldn't rush to CHC just to get a NO2 test kit, there isn't much you can do about it (other than lots of water changes) until the ammonia starts to drop, since ammonia is the start of the biological cycle.

Just a couple of other things, firstly I noticed that you said you removed and cleaned all the rocks etc when you did a water change, I hope you dont do this often? You shouldnt really do it at all as it will kill a lot of the good bacteria each time. Secondly have you tested the water beofre you put it into the tank. I assume your in the country maybe on tank water or bore water, it could be your water supply. Does your water get treated? If your on mains supply do you let it sit overnight, this is really important when your doing very large daily changes.

[Shelley]

Hi Suphew and thanks for your reply. Generally I don't make a habit of taking out the rocks and ornaments for a scrub. I have done so a couple of times when I had a bad algae problem, and on those occasions i sat them in a bucket of water with algae rid in while i did the water change...scrubbed them and rinsed them and put them back into the tank with water conditioner and cycle in the replaced water. I have also done this with plants but only in those very early days when algae was such a problem it seemed to be smothering the life out of the plants. I have never taken out the gravel for a good clean.

The reason for me taking the ornaments now is a) i am looking for a dead fish....still haven't found him but he has got to be in there somewhere. My male guppy did a disappearing act a couple of days ago and i know he must be dead but cannot find him. and b) there is some sort of bug in my tank that is killing my fish..... and it must be in the water, the plants, the ornaments. I think I am maybe better to completely drain the tank and scrub everything.....and boil the stones........ and restart the entire cycling process from scratch.......yes this is the long haul but whatever bug is in there making the water so cloudy....is killing my fish.

I really would like to get a grip of this water testing thing. I know that the desired levels are nil ammonia nitrite and nitrate..... but is anything outside of those levels permisable? My nitrite has been 0.05 since late February. Ammonia sits between 0 and 0.6 (which is the very slight shade up from 0 on the chart)...and sits there consistantly. On 10-3-05 i bought my first nitrate kit... on that day my PH was 7.6 nitrite 0.05 ammonia 0 nitrate 0. a week later nitrate was 20 nitrite 0.05 ammonia smewhere between 0 and 0.6.2 days later nitrate MAY have been 50! (i find it very hard to read which colour it is as it could be any one of three which is a big range). Nitrates then dropped to 10 and has pretty much stayed consistantly there with nitrites being 0.05 and ammonia between 0 and 0.6.

No i am not going to christchurch especially for the nitrite kit......but i do feel i want to keep a closer eye on what is going on so will be getting one. The thing is...water changes dont seem to change the nitrite levels.

I was speaking with Paul from Timaru a couple of days ago and he says he uses peat in his tanks under the gravel which helps lower the PH and works as a sort of filter. I have rushed out and bought some organic peat as i have been a bit concerned that my PH tends to hover right on or beyond) the deepest blue on the scale. cleaning out the main tank would give me a chance to put a layer of peat in and may help keep the tank free of bugs (???) I haven't done anything yet ...I was too tired to start mucking around with tanks last night but had planned on having a tank day today. I will wait for advice but will be moving the remaing fish out of this tank. Despite the strain it may put on my still cycling tanks i think they are possible safer there than they are in the main tank which becomes cloudy within 12 hours of a water change and causes breathing and in some cases swimming difficulties. For the record....the water tests yesterday on the main tank were PH 7.4, ammonia 0.6, nitrite 0.05, nitrate 10.

No I do not stand the water as our water comes direct from the well and there are no additives such as chlorine. I HAVE wondered about the copper pipes though. That was a concern of mine in the earlier days of setting up the tank.

Just tested the water from the tap. PH 6.6, ammonia 0, nitrate 5.

I replace the tank water with water of the same (or close to the same) temperature.

[Shelley]

ooops make that nitrate reading 10...i hadnt given it long enough to stand

[suphew]

Hmm interesting....

I still wouldnt pull down the tank just yet, there are still a few things to look at. Plus there aren't really any 'bugs' that would be causing your problems, there is something funny going on with the water and we need to work out what this is.

Its interesting that your PH chnages so much between your tap and your tank. Try putting some peat in a stocking and put it in your filter, just be warned it will make your water go yellow.

Are you able to get water from somewhere else for a while? I assume you are living rural? Maybe you have some pesticide etc leaching into your well water, has there been rain lately, has there been any spraying? This could explain all you problems, but is really hard to test for so the easiest way is to use different water for a while.

[Shelley]

Good point! Yes it has been raining and yes there are pesticides and herbicides and fungicides and any other sort of -icide you can think of used on this farm! Ugh! the water that goes into the tank is the water we DRINK. Bugger. I have just been to Temuka too....and bought heaps more buckets and a 72 litre rubbish container for using to save old cycled water to help me set up the tank i just resealed.

and of course if i had have collected Temuka water i would need to have let it stand for a day or so as it would be chlorinated.

But..this doesn't explain why it is the main tank goes so cloudy so quickly...and is killing off fish.....with not hugely high (although admittedly above 0) readings.....and yet the same water used in the smaller tanks...so far.... has been ok. I still believe the cucumber to be at fault and will have a closer look at the hose of my filter in case there is a piece wedged in the actual hose (although output seems to be the same as usual).

Bugger....so the tank will go yellow if using peat..is that just till it settles? and is that harmful to the fish? i am unsure where i would put the stocking of peat in the filter....would i use it instead of carbon? or perhaps the filter wool? there is conflicting advice about the order of medias too. I have a fluval 404.... the 4 trays from bottom to top are now filter wool, carbon, ceramic noodles,ceramic noodles. They were in the reverse order when it was set up by the guy at animates....but upon reading the instruction booklet (and getting a grotty tank) i decided to put the media in the order recommended in the book.

today is a really good day for tank mucking about as it is a kid free and husband free zone...it does make things so much easier.

[suphew]

The cloudy water is caused by a bacterial bloom, which is feeding of the waste from your fish (or some thing else in your tank, like rotting food etc) normally the good bacteria would process this before it was able to be used by the bad bacteria hence limiting there growth. If some thing in your water supply like pesticide is killing the good bacteria, you will get the bloom of the bad. In your other tanks perhaps the bio load is low enough that the (depleated) good bacteria is able to keep up.

[suphew]

Yes the peat will turn the water yellow, it is a good indicator that it is working, when the water starts to go clear you know iit is time to replace the peat. If you leave the carbon in it will reduce the yellow.

There is a bit of debate over the correct order to put the media, personally I don't use any filter wool, just the mechincal filter (sponges) and noodles. If you put the filter wool first it will help catch stuff before it gets to the noodles stopping them from clogging so fast, reducing the need to rinse them. But as you have found it will get full itself requiring you to remove everthing to clean it.

[Shelley]

Thanks again Suphew. You have been a great comfort and a very big help. I will go take my 72 litre drum around to my mothers....and cart some water home to stand for the next water change. I will find out from my husband when the last time the paddocks near to the house were sprayed (think it was very recently) as i dont want to have to cart water for every water change. plus i would have to heat some of the carted water so i am not adding it cold. i suspect i may need a few more drums or i will never keep up. Am just using water from the old tanks (not the BAD one) to set up a new tank now to help speed up the cycling process. I have had the filter for this tank churning away in one of the other tanks for a week or so also so hope this will help. my hands feel and look like prunes lol.

[suphew]

Sounds like your onto it.

I assume you know you only need to let your water sit if it has chlorine in it? Otherwise just heat it up and put it in.

[Shelley]

Yep :-) Thanks.

[DiverJohn]

As well as the possible "-icides" killing the bacteria as you have hinted at, is it possible that your water has any fertilisers in it? Super Phospahte? Urea? could be a good start.

Urea is a common fertilizer, Has hi levels of ammonium, which in your tank might be contributing to the ammonia.

Super Phosphate, well the name suggests phosphate which I think most people will agree is not a good thing for an aquarium!

This might cause the algae blooms.

Justa thought ( and not bad for 1am !!) :lol:

John

[Shelley]

A very good thought....and highly probable too. I don't know...the crap they put on their paddocks! How the heck do I go about gewtting our well water checked? Who does it? What am I asking for? and how much is it likely to cost?

I have shifted ALL the fish from the main tank....and the poor wee guys are not happy about it ...........i have kept the plants in and will finish filling it up this morning...will turn the filter on...have left the heater on...and will see if the cloudiness returns with no fish in there to add to the load for the filter. If it does i shall start from scratch and cart water from my mothers place.....which will have to be done in several trips....and will try and keep some on hand for standing for water changes, as her water is chlorinated.

This is really tough. two more deaths this morning....a scissortail (which may have been very very old anyway and had a stooped back...my daughter calls them the question mark fish because that is just what they look like) and a lemon tetra....which isn't actually dead yet.... but will be any second i would think.....i hate to leave her to suffer but she looks like my wee dwarf gourami looked the other night and THAT fish has made a complete recovery!

i could sob....i really could....... these fish are stressed and i have no idea whether removing them from their grotty tank to an apparantly clearer tank is going to help or not. i will be collecting a phosphate kit today also when i replace my nitrite kit. I am glad my husband is away at the moment..... he would be absolutely mortified if he was aware of just how much money is being spent!...on fish that are dying

Mind you..... he is the bloke employed on this farm to do all the spraying!

[DiverJohn]

Hi Shelly,

Hey just on the $$ side. Maybe it would be worthwhile taking a sample of your water (and a sample of your tap water) to the LFS. The LFS here in Aucks will test your water for you - they charge $1 per test tho - but still cheaper than buying all the test kits in teh world.

When you take in the sample you need to take a decent amount. The LFS will need to rinse everything in your fishy water - maybe twice - and then run the test. So probably 50mls per test would be appropriate. They would rather have too much than not enough Also remember that you need to rinse the container you use twice with fish water. Do teh same thing for your tap water sample you take in. Once the LFS indentifies - fingers crossed - whats wrong, they only need to run a test for the specific cause, on your tap water.

Any info you are sure on eg; ph of tap water I would have handy for the LFS. I also point out that in one of your posts you say you tap water pH 6.6. Yet after a short time in your tank it rises to 7.4 ish? Seems a large swing. Perhaps you need to identify what is causing this?? I understand that ammonia levels can be dependant on pH. Is there anything in your tank ( shells ) that could cause the ph to swing. Is all the filter media "brand name " stuff? if its DIY that could be a problem too. And at the end of the day your tank could be cycling still.

Hope that "kind of" helps there may not be one simple fix.

Good Luck

John

[Shelley]

Hi and thanks again for your useful comments. Our lfs....is actually not that accomodating...and to be honest i wouldn't trust their knowledge/skills anyway. I am going to Christchurch anyway today and could get it tested up there but it is only the 2 test kits i feel i need right now nitrite and phosphate. and i like to have these on hand particularly as i have 7 tanks to be keeping an eye on.

The PH threw me too but i seem to remember the last PH test i did on our tap water the reading was much higher. I suspect with our water supply it is constantly changing. I noticed the last PH test i did on the main tank it had come down a couple of points from the previous test which was only 24 hours before with a water change in between so i suspect our house supply is all over the place depending on conditions which are changing all the time.

I have refilled the main tank...and although little time has passed since doing so it is looking ok at this point. i will have a better idea when i get home from christchurch tomorrow..... and i am not looking forward to coming in the door and doing a round of the tanks for a body count

My favourite fish is not long for this world...a groovy little cory. And my favourite fighter is sulking. it will possibly do the fish good to have me out of the house for 24 hours! Leave the poor wee buggers alone!

Just as an aside....a funny thing happened last night. One of our cats loves to sleep on the lid of the main tank because of the heat from the light.......and last night when i came online......i heard a major crash in the lounge and thought it was my bloody tank collapsing!...... the cat had gone to jump onto the lid for a snooze only to find there WAS no lid....and jumped head first into the tank which had about 4 inches of water in the bottom (lucky for the cat it wasnt full!) it was a bright moment in an otherwise sad day. I was relaying this to my mother on the phone this morning...and said cat KNEW i was talking about her...she sat with her back to me washed herself very stroppily...and turned and glared at me :lol: heehee.

[DiverJohn]

Um ok, just going down the track of the additional "feriliser" in the water, stop your cat sleeping on the tank.

Before you start looking at dodgy water supplies you need to ensure there is absoluty no way that anything can get into the water to contaminate it.

With the cat slepping on teh tank it could be all sorts of things. Contamination of "icides" from the cats fur when walking about the farm, ditto fertilizers picked up by teh cat. The cat couldl be drinking the water and harmful bacteria coming off teh cats mouth, food waste falling in from teh cats mouth, sticking its dirty paws in trying to get the fish. And finaly if tiddles does piddles well....

John

[Shelley]

lol...actually tiddles does do piddles....ever since she picked a fight with a car her bladder has been a bit dodgy...but i dont for a second believe anything from her can get into the tank.... firstly i have had three sheets of glass for the lid...on top of which goes a wooden frame where the light sits...on top of which sits 2 pieces of timber to close the box in. there is no way she can get her paws in...the only reason she fell in last night was because all those layers were off....to allow me access to the tank. But yes.... i take your thoughts on board...and thanks they are very much appreciated.