Too much carbon-beware

[Control]

Layton.

Yes, but which one would have this effect, or are you just guessing one would?

No I'm not guessing, I have read it in a number of books that I have.

I'll try to find where once I've found the pictures.

Regardless of the fact that I have read this many times, it is common sense.

Every thing that corals etc. need to survive is supplied to them in and through the water.

How did you test that?

Bare with me I'm doing this from memory. I did keep diaries on all of my test tanks, I just don't now were they are.

All the obvious +

O2 test kit.

Co2 test kit.

I also set the ozone units set point to 0 so it would stay off, I was then able to continue to monitor the ORP level with the ozone unit.

The tank already had an established Algae Turf Scrubber and mud filter.

As I expected the growth rate in the turf scrubber increased first followed by the algae in the mud filter.

I remember I had to do allot of algae pruning to make sure there was plenty of new growth happening to avoid any phosphate spikes.

The increase in growth slowed but was still more than it was when it had the skimmer. I actually took samples of full-length algae’s before and after so I could record what was happening to their growth.

I Remember that I tested before and after lights on in the morning and lights off at night, however I can't remember the length of time that I used after lights on and after light off which was important.

They were recorded.

I do remember that I had no changes with all the tests.

Actually, they are proven to be cyclic in nature for some nutrients, most importantly phosphate.

They have been proven to be many different things in many varyations, it depends on the nature of the environment that is being studied.

Sandbeds have a limit to how much phosphate they can absorb,

Are you guys not pruning your algae? It's the new growth that doe's the work.

they start leaching back into the water column. There are many studies which show this.

The bases in these filters are aerobic at the top to anaerobic at the bottom with algae rooted into it sucking nutrients including Phosphates out constantly. They only start leaching if you stop pruning the algae, that encourages the new growth which consume the

That is pretty much a full biological filter in itself with a built in nitrate and nitrite reactor.

Aaron

[Pies]

Bourneman, Tullock & Fenner all discuss algal scrubbers, and Tullock has documented his findings about the Townsville aquairum. The most important things these 3 authors dicuss in relation to this thread is that a home reef using calurapa and other maco alge is different in the way of which an algal scrubber works.

They go into detail, read it for you self if it interests you, just thought i'd mention it as I think its perpetuating bad advice to call a macroalgae pruning device an algal scrubber, because its not.

Pieman

[Control]

Also ozone can have the perceived effect of raising nitrates, as it provides an environment more conducive to the oxidative processes which convert ammonia, to nitrite to nitrate. It can lead to a temporary inbalance in production and usage rates of nitrate. Given time, they would settle back to normal. Comes down to the whole equilibrium thing, you make a change in your tank, but your tank takes time to settle back to a new equilibrium.

This is one of the points I'm making.

Stability is one of the most important things in a reef tank

All forms of filtration and additives must be a constant, or if need be a controlled constant to keep stability in the system. Not once a week or once a month.

Ozone when used properly with a controller does not cause these problems.

I've been using it for over 8 years without any of these problems.

It has only ever been of benifit.

I'm still not sure about the idea of stopping and starting calcium reactors without apropriate sensors and control for them, as I have read some people do.

Aaron

[Control]

Pies I'm probably going blind but where did "Bourneman" say that

Aaron

[reef]

The amount of bacteria that passes through a skimmer would be probably 0.01 percent of the bacteria

There is no place constant use of ozone in a reef tank; it does kill lots of bacteria,

Maybe using ozone in a reef is the old way, but not many successful reef tank use ozone as it does kill too much of the good bacteria which is good for your tank. Even corals show signs of stress when using too much ozone.

Bacteria filtration is the best type of filtration. Zeovite instructions also says don’t use it as it will kill the bacteria in your tank.

[Control]

My ozone unit comes on for around five to ten minute in every two hours when the ORP level falls below a certain point and then switches off.

The speed that they are being killed at is far less than they can multiply.

It is not an issue.

It would only be a problem if it was running constantly.

Ozone should never be run constantly.

Aaron

[lduncan]

This is one of the points I'm making.

Stability is one of the most important things in a reef tank

All forms of filtration and additives must be a constant, or if need be a controlled constant to keep stability in the system. Not once a week or once a month.

Ozone when used properly with a controller does not cause these problems.

I've been using it for over 8 years without any of these problems.

It has only ever been of benifit.

I'm still not sure about the idea of stopping and starting calcium reactors without apropriate sensors and control for them, as I have read some people do.

Totally agree. But for a tank just starting to use ozone, there could well be a temporary spike in nitrate levels.

Regardless of the fact that I have read this many times, it is common sense.

Every thing that corals etc. need to survive is supplied to them in and through the water.

Is it all dissolved in water? Is it removed by carbon? Much of the corals necessities are provided through zooxanthellae, and capture of prey (bacteria and zooplankton). The major dissolved substances required by corals (and symbiots) are carbonate/bicarbonate, calcium, magnesium, ammonia/nitrogen, oxygen, and phosphorus. All of which are in adequate supply, carbon or no carbon. Problems with carbon (i believe) are almost always secondary effects.

Now I have heard it all. Are you sure you are not reef, iduncan ?

??? Explain? (it's an "L" not an "i" as well)

They have been proven to be many different things in many varyations, it depends on the nature of the environment that is being studied.

That's the interesting thing, they have exhibited very similar properties in tank environments, as they do in natural environments. Nutrient flux occurs both in nature and in tanks, only on a different time scale.

Are you guys not pruning your algae? It's the new growth that doe's the work. .... The bases in these filters are aerobic at the top to anaerobic at the bottom with algae rooted into it sucking nutrients including Phosphates out constantly. They only start leaching if you stop pruning the algae, that encourages the new growth which consume the

That is pretty much a full biological filter in itself with a built in nitrate and nitrite reactor.

If only it was that simple. Sand beds are good for permanently removing nitrate, and absorbing phosphate (algae or no algae). They are by no means a permanent solution to a problem, the do leach phosphate once full (algae or no algae).

Bacteria filtration is the best type of filtration.

I would say that mechanical filtration is the best. Better to remove as much crap as possible before it has the chance to decay (too much).

Layton

[Control]

Iduncan

Totally agree. But for a tank just starting to use ozone, there could well be a temporary spike in nitrate levels.

I never had that with any of my test. And if it did happen an established tank would take care of it very quickly.

The bottom of a mud filter is an anaerobic filter. Nitrate reactors are anaerobic filters that do an excellent job of removing not absorbing nitrates.

In these very specific conditions bacteria remove the oxygen molecule from nitrate and turn it into nitrogen gas that leave the filter in bubbles.

The same thing happens in your live rock and substrate, are they saying that we should not use these as well?

I don't understand how anyone can come to these findings

Is it all dissolved in water? Is it removed by carbon? Much of the corals necessities are provided through zooxanthellae, and capture of prey (bacteria and zooplankton). The major dissolved substances required by corals (and symbiots) are carbonate/bicarbonate, calcium, magnesium, ammonia/nitrogen, oxygen, and phosphorus. All of which are in adequate supply, carbon or no carbon. Problems with carbon (I believe) are almost always secondary effects.

What they need to live is not 100% known what you have listed above is the basics of all life on this planet and by no means is it complete list.

Life is not that simple.

That's the interesting thing, they have exhibited very similar properties in tank environments, as they do in natural environments. Nutrient flux occurs both in nature and in tanks, only on a different time scale.

That all depends on the rest of the system and/or environment, there are to many possible variants to come to just one conclusion.

If only it was that simple. Sand beds are good for permanently removing nitrate, and absorbing phosphate (algae or no algae). They are by no means a permanent solution to a problem, the do leach phosphate once full (algae or no algae).

If people have that problem they can make a sump with two chamber and cycle between them so one could be strip while the other is running.

That would be an interesting experiment.

reef.

Bacteria filtration is the best type of filtration.

All forms of filtration are important. The issue is the order that they are done in.

Mechanical removal from water to minimize the amount of biological filtration.

Biological of what is left and what mechanical cannot remove.

Reactors to remove the side effects of biological creates

Aaron.

[lduncan]

The bottom of a mud filter is an anaerobic filter. Nitrate reactors are anaerobic filters that do an excellent job of removing not absorbing nitrates.

In these very specific conditions bacteria remove the oxygen molecule from nitrate and turn it into nitrogen gas that leave the filter in bubbles.

The same thing happens in your live rock and substrate, are they saying that we should not use these as well?

I don't understand how anyone can come to these findings

Sand beds do a great job with nitrates no problem there. The problem is with phosphorus. Macro algae or no macro algae, sand beds store phosphorus. Once saturated, it leaches back into the water column. Live rock is fundamentally different to sand beds in this respect, in that bacterial turgor that the cyclic swings seen in sand beds does not occur. There are many many research papers which show this, and it is a natural phenomenon.

What they need to live is not 100% known what you have listed above is the basics of all life on this planet and by no means is it complete list.

Life is not that simple.

My point was really that corals are carnivorous, they gain much of their trace nutrients through eating, not directly from dissolved compounds in the water. Carbon doesn't remove bacteria and zooplankton from the water. Carbon does not remove nutrients which are required by corals.

That all depends on the rest of the system and/or environment, there are to many possible variants to come to just one conclusion.

But that is the interesting thing, this has been found to be the case. The exact same thing happens in tanks as in the ocean. Cyclic nutrient swings, driven by sand beds.

If people have that problem they can make a sump with two chamber and cycle between them so one could be strip while the other is running.

That would be an interesting experiment.

That's similar to what I am currently doing. Setup a sand bed, primarily for nitrate reduction, then every few months dump it and start from scratch to avoid phosphorous leaching, which will occur in EVERY deep sand bed.

However, I would MUCH rather be running an exclusively live rock system, as it avoids the inconvenience (and smell) of dumping a dsb every few months. (ie no maintenance), but I don't have room right now. My new tank will be planned with this in mind. Plenty of live rock to stocking ratio. Plus efficient skimming and mechanical filtration.

Layton