Cichlids are Dropping like Flies...HELP!!!

[ulrike]

I have had Cichlids for about 4 months now. I started out with 6 Cichlids in a 10 Gallon tank (GACK! I KNOW=BAD)

They were fine and I knew I owed it to them to upgrade to a bigger tank.

3 weeks ago I got a 75 Gallon aquarium.

I added the 5 yellow Cichlids I had

I sold one of my bigger Peacock Cichlids

I also added 4 Columbian Sharks

and

4 Orange Cichlids

3 Electric Blue Chichlids

3 Jack Dempseys

1 Spotted Shark

I have not added any new fish in about 14 days.

Everything was fine.

Then on Friday, March 25th--3 of my Columbian sharks were dead in the aquarium. They had not been chewed or anything and hadn't been eating for the last few days although they were still swimming around fine

Saturday, March 26th--the last Columbian Shark bites the dust.

Sunday, March 27th--Down goes one of my Electric Blue Cichlids

and

a Yellow Cichlid (keep in mind they had survived for 2 months in a 10 Gallon tank and should be better off now!)

and now....

it looks like one of my orange Cichlids is dying

The last time I did a water change (25%) was about 1 week ago

That was just around the time my Columbian sharks stopped eating and I wonder if that water change started a series of events

I do not know the PH levels and do not have a measuring kit until tomorrow when the Pet Store opens

Ever since I set up the aquarium (maybe the day after), the aquarium has smelled pretty foul. I was told that is normal and just takes cycling

I waited 24 hours to add the fish just like the Cichlid book said, but that was 3 weeks ago and shouldn't be killing them now.

I added salt today to try and help them, but ever since I did the orange one has looked woozy

All of my 4 orange Cichlids seem to have bulging eyes

No white dots or any sort of marks on any of the dead or alive ones

I feed Sinking pellets, frozen brine shrimp, and Tropical Fish Flakes several times a day

I have a Flu-Val 400 pump which can cycle up to a 100 gallon tank

I really need help! I feel like the Grim Reaper. I want this dying to stop. Please help if you have any solutions.

:-? SOS!

[FishBait]

Hi ulrike

I would recomend doing a 25-33% water change,m use water that has been standing for a few days if possible.get your water tested as soon as possible, check on Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate.

Is the water clouldy?

Are any fish showing signs of stress ie blood veins showing in the fins, red in the gills?

Are the fish gasping?

Goodluck

[ulrike]

Okay, I just fished out one of my electric blue fish...DOA

and one of my orange ones is still iffy.

I just finished an emergency 25% water change as you suggested and followed that up by adding a bit more salt.

I did some vaccumming while I was changing water. Is that what I should have done? Or did you mean to change only the water and not stir up the gravel? That may be a stupid question, but it would be great if it could be clarified what exactly the 25% water change SHOULD consist of.

I am so sad for my fish that I barely want to even look at my tank anymore. Every time I do...Man Down!

How do I fix PH levels if I get the test kit for the water tomorrow and discover that any of the numbers like PH or Nitrate , etc are off?

[Pegasus]

Hi ulrike,

Welcome to the NZ Fishroom.

A few things stand out..

3 weeks ago I got a 75 Gallon aquarium

Too many fish for a tank that has "virtually" been set up for such a short time.

I feed Sinking pellets, frozen brine shrimp, and Tropical Fish Flakes several times a day

Sounds like a major case of overfeeding. Cut right back on the food and do regular water changes three times a week.

All of my 4 orange Cichlids seem to have bulging eyes

A sure sign of bad water conditions. As above... water changes.

I did some vaccumming while I was changing water. Is that what I should have done? Or did you mean to change only the water and not stir up the gravel?

There is a deep layer of nasty bacteria below the gravel, and if undisturbed, it usually gives no probs, but too much stirring around will cause a bacteria explosion that your filters can't cope with, and so the problems start.

That may be a stupid question, but it would be great if it could be clarified what exactly the 25% water change SHOULD consist of.

A twenty five percent water change means just that... You remove a quarter of the water "completely" and replace it with suitable water of the right temperature.

Vacuuming is fine in moderation, and is used to remove the rubbish that accumulates on the gravel, or slightly below it.

Siphoning the rubbish out.. (down a drain).. is far better, as you do two jobs at once.. eg: Water removal and cleaning.

HTH

Bill.

[ulrike]

For how long would I do the regular water changes?

I have a vacuum that siphones out the water. You know...one of those plastic tubes that sucks up gravel and cleans it. Is that Okay to use?

I don't find the shrimp, flakes, and pellets all at once. I alternate. They only get the brine shrimp every other day or so. I do feed some flakes and pellets all at once though.

How long should I have waited before adding more fish? It's a big aquarium and most of my fish are only about 2 inches long so I don't think they are overcrowded.

My sister has a 66 gallon aquarium that she only does water changes on every few months and her fish are FLOURISHING and constantly pregnant! I don't understand why mine are in worse condition than hers.

[Caryl]

The thing is, you must add the fish slowly, not all at once. Fish produce waste which is attacked by good bacteria which builds up in the filter as a result of the fish excreting. Adding too many fish at once means the bacteria can't reproduce fast enough to keep up with the wastes produced.

A tank, by the way, should NEVER smell foul.

[agoh]

Ulrike...its great you have come to a forum for help and to learn something new, but in future do some research...and when you decide to add fish to your overcrowded tank...do research on the individual fish - water parameters / good tank companions etc etc to avoid further deaths and further suffering to those poor fish.....

[ulrike]

I actually did do a lot of research and read up on Cichlids both online and in a Cichlid book. On top of that, my sister has both a 150 Gal tank and a 66 Gal tank as previously mentioned and she breeds and sells Cichlids all the time.

I thought everything would be just fine with all three of those resources at my disposal.

I don't understand why my tank would be overcrowded, some of my fish are less than one inch! And my herefore mentioned sister has tanks TEEMING with fish and they never die or get any problems. I barely am lucky to see a fish in mine they are so small and the aquarium is so spacious.

She also has Columbian sharks that have grown to several inches in with her Cichlids and she has had no problems...so I was not expecting to have any either.

The last thing I wanted was to kill a fish--believe me.

The aquarium has smelled foul and very gross ever since the day I set it up.

On a brighter note--there have been no further casualties since the 25% water change late last night and the orange fish is back with the others and was eating and seems to be hanging in there. Maybe he will make it.

I will try Pegasus' advice and keep up the water changes 3 times per week and see what happens.

I also don't understand how adding circa 8 small fish to an aquarium could cause too much bacteria. They are really small fish and I have a good pump.

:-?

[Graeme Holden]

Just a little note to AGOH, this poor person is asking for help and has got some/lots of very very good advice, this situation appears to be stabilising and in all probability will be corrected, but criticism at this stage surely will not help. !!!!

The person concerned asked for help, got it, is doing all that they can to rectify the situation and needs to be praised for their prompt action, sit back and wait for the results of all the excellent work from all sides.

WELL DONE EVERYONE INVOLVED, I AM IMPRESSED, AND FOR ALL THE PEOPLE WHO GAVE ADVICE - GREAT BEST RESPONSES I HAVE SEEN ON THE SITE FOR QUITE SOME TIME , and good luck with your Cichlids (can't believe I got so upset for this poor person who obviously cares a lot for their fish)

[Shelley]

Hi Ulrike. I do understand the distress losing your pets causes you particularly when you are trying so hard to do everything right. I hear what you are saying when you say the fish are so small and the tank is so big...but I think the point that is being made is that the tank needs to cycle first...which is why the gradual input of fish is recommended. I knew nothing of cycling when I first came 'here' (this forum) and my beautiful fish paid the price. Maybe a couple of fish to start things going would have been my bet ....

I test my water quality quite a bit but am not quite sure what to do with the results if they aren't how they should be. my nitrite sits at about .05 and nitrate I find very hard to read but the colour is far more pink than I would like. Although I have a large tank, I think I have overstocked...and am desperate to get my hands on a relatively cheap tank to set up and start cycling...so I can fish out my fin nippers (2 little red things which I think are barbs of some sort)....and later my beautiful 3 black widows which are also fin nippers.

It is great you have a sister that has such healthy fish although her tanks sound REALLY overcrowded to me. My mother had fish VERY successfully for years in Christchurch when I was a kid and the only thing she ever tested was PH she doesn't understand my need for constant reassurance that the water isnt going to kill my little darlings! Although the last few times she has shifted she has started and restarted the fish habit...and not had as much luck and i suspect it is down to the water.

Don't despair. Is your smaller tank still set up? or did you clean it out? Maybe removing some of the fish to the old tank while the newer one cycles would be helpful but don't do it if you have cleaned out the old tank completely because you will have the same problem.

I feel a bit suss really offering this advice as most of it is what I have read here and I really am very inexperienced in this hobby myself...but have found the advice offered here to have been a God send....inevitably we are going to make mistakes.....the purchase of a fish tank here was spur of the moment when the opportunity landed at our feet...in hindsight I should have come here first and READ and READ and READ...... some advice is contradictory...that is ok listen to the feedback others offer to advice given too it is really helpful....and i wish you good luck with your fish tank with your rather dramatic fish loss, it may give the remaining fish a fighting chance (although they must be stressed). Also you said you feed several times a day. I am trying to make myself feed only once every 2 days now after a bad algae problem and being told I was probably over feeding my fish. I think the tank is healthier for it though i do worry the inhabitants might be starving....but they certainly clean up a lot of the residue (they seem to feed from the algae growing on the leaves/ornaments etc) when not fed daily. Like i say i have a large tank (360 litres) and we feed a smallish pinch every second day with a small piece of freeze dried worms (broken up from the original size in the packet) i am looking into supplying them with some live worm food but want to learn how to raise/grow/breed (???) our own. Let us know your progress we are all interested.

[agoh]

sorry if I sounded harsh.....I have gone through similar problems with cycling - no hard feelings, but I do mean to give advice by saying "DO RESEARCH FIRST" there is enough resources on cycling on the internet that give sound specific advise / many on a week by week basis.....I think ignorance requires some "direct" advice....obviously it is seen as 'too' harsh and offensive to some people. CASE CLOSED

[Pegasus]

This is "VERY" concerning...

The aquarium has smelled foul and very gross ever since the day I set it up.

There should be no foul smell whatsoever in a fish tank, and if there is, then it's a sure sign of polution of some description.

I had someone from OS email me some time back with a similar prob.

They had also gone through the normal routines of water changes etc... but still the tank had that slight odor and was never 100% crystal clear.

Anyway.. to cut the several emails short.. I told the writer to check under the rocks for anything suspicious.

Whoa and behold... there was a clutch of fry that had died and was rotting away beneath the rock.

This possibly won't apply to your situation... but if your tank stinks... then there is "definitely" a prob, so check everywhere for dead fish or rotting plants and such.

Also... Just check a section of the gravel..

If it looks black at all.. (normal gravel that is).. then again it is a sure sign of polution, and if it "is" black, then you may be in for a stripdown.

BTW: An established tank "will" have a "very slight" earthy smell about it... but nothing unpleasant... and nothing that would be normally noticed unless you put your nose close to the water.

HTH

Bill.

[llama boy]

sorry if I sounded harsh.....I have gone through similar problems with cycling - no hard feelings, but I do mean to give advice by saying "DO RESEARCH FIRST" there is enough resources on cycling on the internet that give sound specific advise / many on a week by week basis.....I think ignorance requires some "direct" advice....obviously it is seen as 'too' harsh and offensive to some people. CASE CLOSED

I half agree, but come on i mean i got critisied at another forum before i found this one and it makes you feel pretty crap. But i also agree with doing reserch, but when all else fails why not call on people who no what theyre talking about. So i suppose that makes me the middle man!

[agoh]

fairenough ayyyeeee.........I shouldn't be rough when I myself nearly went through a cycling hazard where my fish were breathing fast ("fast breathing" on the forum)...ulrike I owe you a big apology for my rudeness, tell all your fish buddies to join these forums...the guys here are fast and efficient in giving the advice you folks need to minimise the deaths of your swimming investments - gone are the days where columbian sharks become extinct in the ulrike tank and the water smells foul of excrement.

[ulrike]

Yes, the comments did seem harsh. I know that you were trying to speak for those that don't have a voice (The Fish), but it made me feel even more like a heel. I already felt like a killer and that made me even more upset.

I did read online that a tank only needs to cycle for 24 hours. That is what I have done with aquariums in the past with no problems.

I did have 3 good weeks without deaths. Then the dying started on Good Friday and that was the same morning that I was heading out of town until Sunday. I was even trying to stay home and look after my tank, but I had promised someone a ride out of town and had to take them.

I really appreciate all the good advice on here. I will be doing another 25% water change today...this will be the 2nd one this week. I got the PH test kit yesterday and found that the PH level is around 7.5. That is very close to what Cichlids like according to what I have read on the instructions....so I am not sure the problem could be. I think my PH is still a little high and I put the PH Down solution in, but it didn't change. How long does it take?

I think for now the salt and the water changes are happening. Dare I say that 24 hours have gone by without death!? Hopefully that won't jinx anything

I have a cold right now so I can't tell if my aquarium still has any sort of odour....it is possible that the salt has cleared some of that up, I suppose.

I don't think the odour could be attributed to anything in the tank because I first noticed the smell about 2 hours after setting it up and there were no deaths or any food pieces in there.

I expect it to smell slightly fishy, but not so sour and strong....again,,,,maybe that has cleared up now...I can't smell.

How many fish should I add at once---after my tank has stabilized?

I do have one Columbian spotted shark left....they haven't all gone to the big fishbowl in the sky. Thank God. I have been told that Columbian sharks are hard to keep and that sometimes people have to buy 4-8 of them just to have 1 or 2 survive and grow. Is this true? Anyone know if they are just really sensitive fish?

One of my Plecto's (hoovers) had a few cuts and I treated him with Pima Fix for a week before all the dying started happening. Then I did the partial water change like the bottle said. Could his infection or the Pima have set any of this off?

Thanks for all your help. You are all lifesavers. Literally! I am very impressed with this forum...it was only about 10 minutes until I got my first response and was able to take action and save the orange fish

[jude]

I'm glad all the replies have been so helpful and you are certainly trying hard to fix whatever the problem is.

It worries me that the tank smelled bad from when you first set it up, and before anything was added. What substrate did you use? Was it new or from your old tank? Was it well washed first?

If the tank smelled when you had nothing in it but water and substrate I would be very suspicious that there might be something wrong with the gravel or whatever you used.

Just my thoughts. Once your cold is better you will be able to tell whether the smell has gone or not

Best of luck

Jude

[Caryl]

pH won't be your biggest problem either, it will be the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates that will give you an idea of what is going on. Did you get test kits for these? The Nitrates and ammonia in particular.

Things would have gone well until the toxins built up over time - around the 2 - 3 week level which is why things were OK to start with. Whoever advised a 24 cycle time was gravely mistaken, as you have found.

African cichlids in the wild live in a pH of around 8.0 plus. Mine live in 7.0 as that is the pH the breeder bred them in and they have never known any different. They are living and breeding happily at that pH, it is not critical. This also saves me having to try and alter the pH as my tap water is 7.0.

I doubt any treatment given the plec would have triggered this off, just coincidence (assuming you followed the instructions).

Wait until the tank has stabilised then give us a rundown on what fish you have left and we can check stocking levels then.

Good luck! 8)

[agoh]

also be careful of some sources on the net...some are quite false as I have found in a few species profiles etc etc.....mongabay is a good webpage for me, basically don't restrict yourself to one source of information....always followup

[Shelley]

I agree with whoever it was that said the smell may have been coming from the gravel. When i bought my tank (I must stop saying that! When I went to view and collect the tank my DAUGHTER bought.....) they had just emptied the tank...and the smell was quite strong. We cleaned the tank but didn't wash the stones, we felt this man that we bought it off (who had kept fish for 12 years) would know what he was about....i suspect he did however we didn't!

I think I had heard something similar to you about the 24 hours thing but that wasn't for cycling it was for a minimum time of aging the water. I don't age my water here....I don't have enough buckets for one thing and to make sure the water is close to the temp of the water i am removing it would be impossible (i think it might be a bit risky to add a jug full of boiling water to a bucket of aged water in the hope of getting the temp right.) also I believe the purpose of aging the water is to let the chlorine content evapourate and we dont have added chlorine in our water....but I have found aquaplus as a water conditioner makes water changes much less stressful on the fish whenever i have changed water without i have had losses...the tank is desperate for a 25% change now but I am waiting for the aquaplus to arrive before i do it.

Anyway....fingers and toes crossed that your tank is on the road to recovery.

[herefishiefishie]

24 hours to cycle, sorry to say no. Unless they used already soiled filters, gravel, old water........

6 weeks is closer to the mark. Some say 8 weeks. Caryl, Pegasus are right with what they said.

Where I used to work we had a chart with how a tank cycles, explains it very well. Can be found in some books, i'll try to find which one.

OK, so you didn't do Fishless Cycling or & now your fish are dying and nothing's breaking down that ammonia and nitrite. Water smells?? yes!! What do you do now?

Here's what I do to give my fish the best chance:

1. Immediately do a 10-15% water change with dechlorinated water and continue to do this at least once daily until your tank is cycling (i.e. ammonia and nitrite are at zero).

2. Test the water daily for ammonia and nitrite until the values are holding at zero for several days running. If levels are high, do an immediate, extra water change.

3. If at all possible, get some matured filter media and/or gravel from a matured tank and put it in your tank, suspended in an old stocking. This will hopefully impregnate your new tank with the beneficial bacteria. One lady successfully used floss from a relative's fish pond to colonise her new tank! (you have to be careful that what you use is clean and free from pathogens, of course).

4. Keep good aeration in the tank both to help the fish a little and to oxygenate those beneficial bacteria.

5. Avoid using medications, if at all possible, as many medications kill off beneficial bacteria. Your fish may well get ick, fungus or other infections due to the stress of the ammonia and nitrite but the priority is to get that water quality as good as possible.

6. If you have delicate fish in the tank, such as plecos, corys or other bottom dwellers, tetras, pencilfish etc. try to re-home them temporarily, such as asking the Local Fish Shop to look after them until your tank is cycled (after all, chances are that they got you in this mess in the first place).

7. Live plants can directly use ammonia, so if you can, put some cheap aquatic plants in the tank, such as elodea or giant vallis.

8. Don't feed your fish at all if your ammonia readings are high, and only feed bare minimum rations every other day, until the tank cycles. This will cut down on the ammonia the fish produce. Since fish are cold blooded creatures and don't need the calories of a mammal they can go several days without food anyway, and the occasional fast is good for them. Your fish may not be very hungry anyway so do be careful not to feed more than the fish can eat and clean up uneaten food immediately, before it rots and produces even more ammonia.

9. Only clean the gravel superficially, of obvious dirt and uneaten food. You want the bacteria to colonise it and actually start to grow. Also, don't swap out your filter at this point - if it gets blocked, just clean it enough to unblock it, in used tank water.

ps; the smelly water, usually indicates that there is an excess of fish food in the water. This can occur even if the fish eats all of the food available.

Hope this helps,

Frenchy

[ulrike]

Okay, Thanks for continueing to post and update. My tank has turned around for the better. There haven't been any more deaths.

Here are the ones who survived the brutal massacre.

4 electric yellow Cichlids

4 Orange Cichlids

1 Electric Blue Chichlids

3 Jack Dempseys

1 Spotted Shark

2 Plectos (1 large, 1 small)

How many more fish could I ass considering that none of my fish (other than the 1 plecto) are bigger than 2 inches?

The aquarium no longer smells Other than normal aquarium smells. I have been doing 3 x 25% water changes for the last week and a half.

I am not sure whether the water changes, the vacuuming, or the aquarium salt for freshwater fish that I added helped.

I bought an ammonia alert and it shows safe

I tested the PH and have a PH somewhere around 6.7. I have to get a high PH kit just to be sure and more exact.

If people are not supposed to vaccum the aquarium during water changes, then wouldn't their water get filthy? When do they vaccum then? Every 4 months?

Another thing....we are moving in about 2 months. How can I best do it without any more deaths. Keep in mind that I have 75 gallons of water in there, 75 pounds of gravel, and precious fish. I will be moving about 25 km (25 minute drive) away. I do not have a big container in which I can take a lot of water or anything. I just have a car....not a truck or anything that can hold anything substantial.

What can I do? Will I run into the same problem again if I put the fish into new uncycled water when I set up? Or will the bacteria from the aquarium still be in there and help it cycle so I can put the fish in again?

Unfortunately, I have already learned that whoever wrote that a 24 hour water cycle is enough is really wrong!

[suphew]

You need to calculate the number of fish based on the full grown size not the current size UNLESS you plan on upgrading the tank size VERY soon because fish grow pretty quick.

I dont think the PH is THAT critical for Cichlids, as long as you know you are in the right ball park you dont need to be exact.

DO vacuum when you do the water change but just do the top 1/2 - 1cm or so of gravel, deeper down there could be nasty stuff that you don't want to stir up into the water. This is normal, the plants will enjoy it being there.

[Alan]

Try this site here for a bit of late research, there's heaps to find when you do a google "fishless+cycling".

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article14.html

Alan 104

[craig]

hey its shelley i posted you some helpful information but i sent it to the wrong place if you would like to read it its in welcome under new at this not fish computers

[herefishiefishie]

Moving;

Dont feed fish for 2 days before the move.

I'd go to a cheap shop & buy one of the containers on wheels. I have one that holds 120 litres.

Get a couple of battery air pumps, handy to keep to incase of blackouts or future moves.

When u move 1/2 full container with tank water, place in the fish connect air pump.

When u are ready too move tank,

Put filters in bucket with tank water, run a air pump in that. If its a cannister filter leave it filled with water.

Empty tank, but leave just enough water to cover gravel, if you can carry tank this way. if not gravel in buckets with tank water. Being a short trip u should be fine.

This is probably the best way to keep alive the bacteria, also the more tank water u can keep the better.

Run tank when filled for a few hours to mix everything back in. Use a product like cycle, geo liquid....will help. Make sure the water is neutralised if you can before it goes into the tank if not before filters are placed in the tank. If you have a spare small internal filter, you can run that in the fish container to keep them safe for a longer period of time.

Frenchy