Phillz Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 I bought these fish the other day, and sadly they are in bad shape...the tank they were in had some dead neons in it, and the 2 neon that were alive when I got them, died on the ride home to my mothers. The Golden sucking loach and 2 other angels sadly didn't make it aswell. The remaining 3 angels and pleco, got home (up Nth) safely, and I have them in their own tank and treating them with Tonic. Tonic says....A general cure for finrot, tailrot, whitespot and other fungal skin diseases The pleco is covered in small white dots.....so I assuming it has white spot, and the Angels look like they have finrot and some sort of fungal thing going on. Any suggestions would be appreciated.....I don't want to lose these fish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Sounds to me like your 'tonic' is snake oil, White spot is a parasite and fin rot is fungal. Each require totally different treatments. Firstly I would look at your water quality, if fish are happy they are normally pretty resistant to most diseases (just like humans are far more prone to getting sick when they are run down, or in a poor environment). I assume your tank has been setup long enough (at least a month) to be completely cycled, and has enough filtering etc? Do a few large (50%) water changes a couple of times a week, with good aged water to get the quailty up. If you don't have test kits to check you water most pets shops will test it for you, i.e. if you have high NO2 your filter isn't working well enough or you tank isn't cycled, if you have high NO3 you need to change more water to remove it. Secondly go and get the correct treatment for white spot and an anti-fungal treatment, I'm not sure if it wise to treat both at the same time, I would do the fin rot first cause it looks pretty bad, plus fish can have a pretty bad dose of whitspot before it kills them. When you treat for white spot raise the tank temp to 28-29 degree's. Whitspot has a life cycle, only part of which is on the fish, and they can only be killed while they and going from fish to your gravel. Raising the temp speeds up this cycle making it more likely you will kill them all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillz Posted February 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 If you read my post you will see that these are newly aquired fish. My trip to auckland was to get some new fish to go in my community tank, also I got a 3ft tank to set up as a bigger native tank. But having been given such sick fish, they have gone into the new tank, along with the water they came out of+ half new water.....they got the gunk from the filter out of my established tank.....it was certainly not planned that way lol. The tonic has methylene blue, malachite green, acriflavine, quinine.....I have white spot cure as well....just wanted some advice on what I should try to do for them next....oh and I uppped the temp to 28 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HummingBird Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 If you get some I recommend using Copper Sulfate to take care of the White Spot, it works quickly and it's a lot less stressful on the animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo1 Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 I am using a mixture of formalin and malachite green on an angel with finrot. Began treatment yesterday and another dose today. Also use it for white spot and fungal infections in goldfish with good results. I have been keeping the filters going but removing the carbon. Would be interested to hear how you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Sorry I keep coming back to water but as I said before most diseases are caused by poor water, I may be wrong but from what I have read of what you have done so far I think you need to address this first. There seems to be a lot of misconceptions regarding using old water and juck from filters. Firstly the old water, the point of cycling a tank is to get the bacteria fully established and the denitrification cycle working, while it is good to use old water for other reasons, it actually has very little bacteria in it (realitive to the total in the tank), the bacteria mostly lives on surfaces like your gravel, filter media, plants etc etc not free floating in the water so it doesn't really help getting a new tank cycled. Secondly using gunk from your filters does help, but it only helps, it doesnt remove the cycling process, and remember that along with the good bacteria you are also adding a whole lot of extra polutants (i.e. all the gunk). And just to add to the difficulties your filter bacteria has been living in an environment with oxygenated water flowing through it, unless you have added this to a new filter and it in the same type of environment there is a good chance that a lot of the bacteria will die and add to the tank polution in the tank. Assuming I not missing something with what you have done, if you have a filter on your new tank why not swap it with the one on your old tank for a while this will get the cycle going really quickly plus will mature your new filter a lot faster to. If you don't have a second filter you could still move the old filter onto your new tank for a couple of weeks, if the old tank is running well removing the filter for a couple of weeks wont hurt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillz Posted February 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Thanks for your advice suphew & I understand what you are saying about the water issue. My problem is this though, I didn't plan on getting sick fish so couldn't put them in the established tank they were meant for. Instead they had to go in a newly aquired tank as they had no other place to go. Here is what I did..... I put water in the tank from my established tank, along with a few handfuls of gravel, also did the gunky thing with the filter that came with the tank , as I didn't have a spare. The heaters that came with the tank didn't work, so had to use one from another tank :roll: . I had the infected fish in a bucket, so added water from their tank to get them used to the water conditions etc, then into the tank they went. They seemed to perk up straight away and look alot happier :lol: . They have been in this new tank since Wednesday night, when should I do a water change and how much? I just hope I am doing enough for them :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo1 Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 I would do a small water change today, replace the gunky thing eith a new one, Is it a sponge? And you could try adding some salt only the loach would not like it too much but might help. (Aquarium salt that is). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Jo said: replace the gunky thing eith a new one, Only my view on this... but doing this will do nothing towards controlling any bad bacteria, as being "new" it's only benefit will be in removing suspended matter from the water. The concept of using a gunky old filter (plus gravel and a small amount of water in some cases) is that it contains enough useful bacteria to control the unwanted bacteria to a safe level, provided the latter is at a controllable level, (eg: that the tank is not so cloudy that you can't see the fish) and if not, then partial water changes on a regular basis will be required. IMO your "established" filter is like gold, and should be treated with great care. Regarding the fin rot... I have had Angels with little more than a stump for a dorsal fin. This was eaten away by other fish, plus fungus. One adult was at a stage of laying on its side on the bottom, and looked like there was no hope. The progressive salt treatment cured this in a short time, with new growth being seen in the first few days, and by around a month, the whole fin had re-grown back to far better than the original one. Salt works wonders for many things, and I prefer it to using chemicals of any sort. Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillz Posted February 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 The progressive salt treatment cured this in a short time, with new growth being seen in the first few days, and by around a month, the whole fin had re-grown back to far better than the original one. Salt works wonders for many things, and I prefer it to using chemicals of any sort. Bill. Bill can you explain the progressive salt treatment to me please? Also, will the salt affect the pleco?....it is roughly 150mm long. On the pleco it looked at first like it was covered in whitespot....now it looks more like a fungus....I'll try getting some photos of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillz Posted February 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Boy is this guy hard to get a shot of 8) You can see it on his eye here, like a film. all over his body in this pic Apart from the water stain you can see the spots quite clear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 I find melafix works well to, for helping with damaged fins (and it smells nice!) And might be a better option if there are loaches in the tank. Its a bit hard to tell from the pictures but a bad case of white spot looks like a dusting of fine white sand, most fungus I have have seen is localized in a few areas on a fish usually near a wound, mouth, or gill and looks like a fuzzy patch. If this is white spot it looks like quite a bad case plus the fins look clamped which is also a bad sign. Have you started treating yet? If not I would get onto it asap. FYI I use methylene blue only to treat white spot, I read that malchite green causes cancer, proberly complete crap but methylene blue works well so..... Once the treatment starts you should notice an improvement in just a few days, I'm always amazed how fast fish heal once they have the right treatment. Not sure what you have in the tank but a small piece of wood might make the plec happier, he will chew on the wood and it will give him something to hide under causing him less stress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo1 Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Wouldn't the gunky thing also have bad bacteria in it. I was guessing it was a sponge and as it is all clogged up anyway and there is bacteria in the water and gravel now I don't think it would do much harm to replace it and would probably help. I feel it is important to have a clean filter when you have disease in the tank. A little bit of salt is OK with plecos but not too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillz Posted February 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 The tank has the 3 sick angels and the pleco in it, they all came from the same tank. The tank has only a few handfulls of gravel, I put a large piece of wood in there for the pleco as well as a tunnel/pipe for him to hide in. I cannot get to a LFS as I live in the middle of nowhere , so I only have a few thing with which I can treat, until I can next get to town. I bought the Tonic ,as mentioned before, on advice from a store in Auckland. I have used it befor for white spot, and it worked on the infected guppies. I also have White spot Cure, Cure Ex & Tonic salt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 But are you using any of them? The white spot cure will be either meth blue or mel green, either will work. If you have started treating I think you are doing all you can, just wait a few days. Also if you haven't treated yet do the water change then treat, if you have treated maybe hold off a day or two for the water change otherwise you will just be removing your treatment. You said you are in the middle of nowhere?? Are you on bore or tank water? Maybe you should think about doing a few set of tests on it (or take some to shop next time you go and ask them to) Bore water can be really hard (high in minerals) tank (rain) water can be really soft plus both can have alot of other not so good stuff in them. A good test would give you peace of mind or might give you an idea what sort of fish you should be keeping. i.e. a good supply of soft water is great if you want to keep tetras or discus! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillz Posted February 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 We are on tank water...i will definately get the water tested when next in town. The first night I treated them with the tonic....which turned the water a very pretty blue Today I did a 50% water change, removed uneaten food etc, and treated with the whitespot cure....so I guess I just have to sit tight and see if the poor guys improve. The angels are looking happier, and finally ate some mossie larvae....didn't really touch their flake food in the last couple of days. Fingers crossed they make it.....they aren't so shy now aswell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Philz asked: Bill can you explain the progressive salt treatment to me please? Also, will the salt affect the pleco?....it is roughly 150mm long. On the pleco it looked at first like it was covered in whitespot....now it looks more like a fungus I certainly wouldn't risk using the salt treatment on the Pleco.... or any Catfish. I see you have now already started the treatment for WS.. so it might be wise to forego any other treatments until the one you are using runs its course. The PST (Progressive Salt Treatment) is well documented on the net, but basically the usual dosage is one tablespoon per four litres of water. The "progressive" part is that you increase this amount slightly over the period of the treatment, which may be only a few days, or perhaps a week or so. I only went to around 2.5 tablespoons per 4ltrs, but apparently they can withstand higher dosages. The salt strips the unwanted mucus from the fish and promotes new growth. Some recommend a quick ten minute dip in a stronger solution a couple of times a day. I used a seperate tank for my treatments, and did water changes each day. The removed water was replaced with prepared water of the same salinity. As the fish improved, the water was replaced with normal water to reduce the salinity. Care should be taken to watch for signs of stress, and the fish should be removed if needed. Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillz Posted February 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Thankyou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo1 Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Got to disagree, if you have problems a 1/4 cup of salt to around 100 litres will help and in all the time we have been using it, it has yet to cause a death in the bristlenoses we use in every tank. But I guess everyone has their own opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caserole Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 The angels look like fin root and plico very bad white spot thats maybe y the fins are clamped ! Bill's addvic sound good . do small dayly water changes and top up treatment , leave old filter in tank , I hope you have started treatment that plico looks real bad . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Jo said: Got to disagree, Unfortunately, so do I... if you have problems a 1/4 cup of salt to around 100 litres will help Will help what may I ask...? At that degree of dilution it would do nothing to promote a rapid cure for the problem mentioned. Yes... I agree that a 1/4 cup in 100ltrs would be fine as a general tonic, or as an assistance to replace certain minerals, (some add a small amount of salt every other week for this purpose).. or as an addition to the water for Mollies and such, but in the first instance... very few who use this forum can devote a 100ltr tank for the purposes of medication, and the example given in my post was the basic measurements for treating fish with this kind of fin damage. I was asked by Philz what the Progressive Salt Treatment was.. and I gave my answer. Bill can you explain the progressive salt treatment to me please? But perhaps you missed this. I try to answer questions directed at me, and so Philz got the answer she asked for. Nothing here to disagree on as far as I can see. Regards, Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caserole Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 salt will increase fish mucuse combined with blue or green dayly water changes and and high temp will work. I keep nothobranchus killies and my water has little / no buffer in it , this can aloue swings in the ph ,notho's can get velvet, very much like white spot . i treat this as follows methyline blue , temp 26C , 25% water change every day with blue top up ,and 1tp per 4lt's( if it's bad 1.5tp per 4lt)and it works fast , fish back breeding in 1.5 weeks. a 25% water change dayly is xtrem os i dont advise it to others cus there not my fish . but when white spot gets bad it can kill so fast you dont want to muk around . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo1 Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Raising temp is a good idea too. I reckon decide on treatment you are going to use and stick with it. We are having a few problems with white spot in goldfish tanks due to the stress brought on by high temps in Wgtn. We use the formalin & malachite & salt. No food goes into tank until we return 2 days later and retreat. Back again a few days later and gravel vac & water change. The white spot is gone after the first treatment but want to get it out of the water. Also not sure if anyone can buy the formalin. Funny thing is it is not occurring in offices with airconditioning that is on all the time - well logical really. I always thought Meth Blue was just an antiseptic so don't see how it would kill the ich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caserole Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 blue can kill the free swim stage . formalin can be dangerus suf to play with but is a cure all ,i new of a guy in wellington who used every spring to clean his fancy gold fish up before milking them. you can buy 1lt at 1% solution of formalin in pet shops master pet brand i think ? i would agree your g/fish white spot will be cuz high temp stress it was so hot i lost some young bonz cory to heat strok there was nothing i could do to get the temp down with out chilling all the fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caserole Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 the things you forget, you can KILL DEAD white spot by raising the temp to 30C or 31C the parasite can not live at that temp ! you must increas bubbles at those temps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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