First post: Amazon blackwater biotope tank

[David R]

In all honesty, I don't think there is such a thing as a south american/amazon biotope.

Of course there isn't, its a huge country with countless rivers and lakes with everything from rocky hard water environments to densely planted areas and just about everything in between. How can there be such a thing as a "south american biotope" encompassing all those things? Even the amazon river itself is hugely varied and could never be represented in a single biotope aquarium.

"Biotope" seems to be the latest buzz-word for people who want to make their set ups seem more authentic or natural.... :roll:

Kinbote; firstly, great tank!! I saw it at Gregs last week when I was picking up the sump for my 1400L tank, you'll love the width! There's a couple of things you need to think through though.

What kind of fish are you planning on keeping in there? Are you going to make it a true blackwater biotope in the sense that all the fish will be from the same region?

With that wide a tank, if you make the water too dark its going to cut down on the visibility unless its really brightly lit and/or viewed from both sides. Dark water will also restrict the plants you can grow without bright lights. If you look at the pics in that link in your first post you'll see there aren't many plants. Blackwater biotope and heavily planted don't really go together, in the sense that they usually don't occur in habitat (although I'm sure you could find a location that has blackwater AND dense plants somewhere in south america).

I'd suggest using fine white sand, plenty of thin branch-like wood, and maybe a small plants like dwarf chain sword if you really feel the need to have something green in there. Leaf litter looks really good, but I have found it to be a real pain to maintain in larger tanks, especially with fish like corydoras that sift the sand, the leaves get buried and start decomposing in the sand, not great.

Flick me a PM or email if you want to come check out my big tank [nearly up and running now!] and the 300L blackwater tank I just set up.

[Kinbote]

In all honesty, I don't think there is such a thing as a south american/amazon biotope.

Hard scape may be accurate at times, but I don't think many of the fish will ever meet each other in the wild, or live in an environment that is like the scape. Theres just too much variety and diversity.

Yeah, when I say amazon biotope I mean something that could conceivably be some specific, yet to be determined part. Not the whole river in one tank. That said, in the Amano Takashi pics that I linked on the first page, there seem to be angels, cardinals and some sort of geo together, at the least.

or just have an empty, dirty tank and say its part of the amazon.

There's always that.

I did see on tv, a large pool/lake that was crystal clear and hard heaps of fish and plants... Might see if I can find it.

Cool, I'd like to see that. I think I've seen clear parts of the Suriname river in a few pics.

[Kinbote]

Kinbote; firstly, great tank!! I saw it at Gregs last week

That's the one, good spotting.

my 1400L tank

Damn, that's the stuff. Going to keep pirarucus in it?

you'll love the width!

Yeah, I'm really happy with the shape of it. It's basically the same length and twice the width of my current tank, plus a little extra in both directions. Hoping I can get some good foreground, midground and background space going on.

What kind of fish are you planning on keeping in there? Are you going to make it a true blackwater biotope in the sense that all the fish will be from the same region?

At first I'll be transferring the fish from my current tank; 10 rosy tetras and 5 bleeding hearts. After that, as I mentioned in my post above, I've seen angels, cardinal tetras and geos together in the same place, so I'm planning to use that as a starting point. I'm thinking six angels, 10 - 15 cardinals and 2 geophagus surinamensises, and probably a few corys. Very open to suggestions, though.

With that wide a tank, if you make the water too dark its going to cut down on the visibility unless its really brightly lit and/or viewed from both sides.

I'll see how the tinting goes as to how dark I make it, but it will be viewable from both sides and lit with about 160 watts via four t8 daylight fluorescent tubes. But I like the idea of having to work a bit to see all the fish.

Dark water will also restrict the plants you can grow without bright lights. If you look at the pics in that link in your first post you'll see there aren't many plants. Blackwater biotope and heavily planted don't really go together, in the sense that they usually don't occur in habitat

Good point.

I'd suggest using fine white sand, plenty of thin branch-like wood, and maybe a small plants like dwarf chain sword if you really feel the need to have something green in there. Leaf litter looks really good, but I have found it to be a real pain to maintain in larger tanks, especially with fish like corydoras that sift the sand, the leaves get buried and start decomposing in the sand, not great.

Dwarf chain swords are exactly what I was thinking, to get a sort of lawn look, although according to the article at the top of this page, no swords actually grow in the amazon.

Geos would probably be even worse for that than the corys. Were you using whole leaves?

Flick me a PM or email if you want to come check out my big tank [nearly up and running now!] and the 300L blackwater tank I just set up.

Thanks, I'd love to check it out in the new year. Will return the offer once mine's setup.

[antwan]

When I had geo's they were very good at burying the leaves, which would then rot, just like David said. I used whole leaves.

[David R]

Yes I was using whole oak leaves, wasn't even going to try in the tank with the geos!!

I'd stay away from "surinamensis" (G. altifrons) if you're going to keep small fish like cories and tetras, they can potentially get to 12" and I have seen them die from getting smaller fish stuck in their mouths. Satanoperca leucosticta ("jurupari") or Biotodoma cupido are both available here and would be a better mix with the smaller fish.

10-15 cardinals would barely be noticeable in that tank, think big, go for a group of 30+ at the very minimum, even if it means going for a cheaper species.

[Kinbote]

Yes I was using whole oak leaves, wasn't even going to try in the tank with the geos!!

I'd stay away from "surinamensis" (G. altifrons) if you're going to keep small fish like cories and tetras, they can potentially get to 12" and I have seen them die from getting smaller fish stuck in their mouths.

Hahah, well that isn't funny.

Satanoperca leucosticta ("jurupari") or Biotodoma cupido are both available here and would be a better mix with the smaller fish.

What I'd read was that the surinamensis gets to about 11" and the jurupari and brasiliensis get to about 10", so didn't think there was much difference. Is that wrong?

10-15 cardinals would barely be noticeable in that tank, think big, go for a group of 30+ at the very minimum, even if it means going for a cheaper species.

Yeah, I'll build up the numbers. I'm not too concerned with price, within reason. Any other suggestions? Some wild looking piranha-like fish like silver dollars / pacus would be nice except they'd destroy the plants. Also, any recommendations for fish that stay near the surface, other than hatchets?

[phoenix44]

Pencil fish!

I have 50 cardinals in my tank and I can barely see them :nilly:

100 would be good.

[DennisP]

Pencil fish would be nice.

[Kinbote]

Pencil fish!

I have 50 cardinals in my tank and I can barely see them :nilly:

100 would be good.

Photo looks pretty sweet. What size is it?

[Kinbote]

This isn't looking too good. The authentic substrate with leaf litter won't work with geos or corys, the geos might choke to death trying to eat the tetras and the plants will all be out of place. Hmmm. :-?

Did anyone watch any of the Monster Fish episodes on National Geographic today? 'Traditional megafishing techniques'.

[DennisP]

Its only a small chance the geo's will choke on the tetra.

Nothing to worry about. You'd be unlucky to even get 1 choking to death.

Leaf litter will still work with cories and geos, just use less, so tehre is still room for the geo's to reach the sand.

[malevolentsparkle]

there is a close relative of the silver dollar that is not quite so big, has more colour (red) and is not so destructive to plants. be dammed if i can remember what its called though. I have seen them for sale in NZ.

[phoenix44]

red mettnys. They were for sale here some time back. 2 shipmants came in IIRC a year and a bit apart.

[Kinbote]

red mettnys. They were for sale here some time back. 2 shipmants came in IIRC a year and a bit apart.

You sure that's the name? I'm not getting any results for that on google.

[Caryl]

Metynnis

[malevolentsparkle]

some talk about them here:

http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29454&start=0

HWFF Mt Roskill has some in their big display tank with Helen

[Kinbote]

some talk about them here:

http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29454&start=0

HWFF Mt Roskill has some in their big display tank with Helen

Oh, thanks. All of that stuff's going to demolish the greenery isn't it?

[malevolentsparkle]

some species are worst than others. i think some will leave though plants alone

[Kinbote]

Does anyone have experience with geos and pygmy chain swords?

Also, has anyone ever tried wooden storage pallets as a cheap if ugly aquarium stand? http://bhagwatitimber.com/photos/1-1.jpg Or is no one else as cheap as me? It's been a nightmare to find any sort of adequate stand for the approximately one tonne aquarium without spending $500+, whereas I could probably do the job with two stacks of pallets for about $10 judging by trademe prices. Throw a cloth over them or something.

[David R]

Pallets generally aren't treated, so not a good option long-term. Have a look at the first stand I made for my 1400L in the link in my sig, would have worked well if the timber had been run through a thicknesser first to get it all exactly the same height. I guess it depends how high you want it and if you want storage underneath. Cinderblocks are a cheap option, but before going cheap you have to ask yourself how much you value your fish, your tank, and everything else around it that could get ruined if the stand fails...

TBH, the last two steel stands I've bought from Hollywood have been worth every cent of the $750-odd they cost. No mucking about, stand gets delivered, ply and poly sit on top, and on goes the tank. Sorted.

[Kinbote]

Pallets generally aren't treated, so not a good option long-term. Have a look at the first stand I made for my 1400L in the link in my sig, would have worked well if the timber had been run through a thicknesser first to get it all exactly the same height. I guess it depends how high you want it and if you want storage underneath. Cinderblocks are a cheap option, but before going cheap you have to ask yourself how much you value your fish, your tank, and everything else around it that could get ruined if the stand fails...

That stand you built is intense. What went wrong?

The pallets being untreated shouldn't be an issue since they'll be indoors, right? You generally don't want treated timber for indoor use. I'm not concerned about looks but I am concerned about strength; average pallets are rated for about one tonne, and I'd be using two stacks of them each taking about 500kg.

[David R]

The timber wasn't exactly the same thickness along its whole length, meaning it wasn't evenly supporting the tank. It would work fine if the timber had been accurately gauged with a thicknesser.

As for the untreated pallets, I would be seriously reluctant to use untreated timber, even indoors, without sealing it [using thinned varnish] and several coats of paint or varnish. It is almost guaranteed to get wet at some point and it will eventually start to break down. You're right that pallets are designed to support about a ton, but they are also designed to be thrown away after a while, and they aren't designed to support the weight without flexing.

That said, your tank isn't exceptionally deep and is made out of fairly thick glass, so the weight will be well distributed. The other side of that coin is that you have a larger area to make completely level. IMO, I wouldn't risk using the pallets if you're planning on having it set up for a long time.

[Kinbote]

After a lot of trouble with different options, I finally got a table custom built by a friend of mine, and got the new tank inside for the first time.

[Kinbote]

Got about 200kg of substrate into the new tank and starting to fill it with water. Running one power filter with peat moss in place of the carbon; will set up my two Aqua One CF1200s in a couple of days.

Need suggestions for amazonian fish to put in it. Nasty, wild looking ones ideally.

[David R]

I'd nearly be tempted to stick to small fish, say nothing over 10cm. School of some sort of tetras, big group of corys, smaller plecs and whiptails (ok maybe the whiptails can be over 10cm!) and some smaller cichlids like keyholes, flags, Biotodoma, Apistos etc.

Looks good, but needs some driftwood!!