Losing fish - Link with Excel?

[Kipper]

Hi all,

Just a quick query and a chance to pick your collective brains.

I've recently lost two Sparkling Gouramis (3 weeks apart). Fine one day, tatty tailfin next day, breathing rapidly, dead in 24 hours.

They are in a peaceful nano-fish community tank (see below) that I supplment with Excel and liquid ferts. The last one to go happened the day after a dose of Excel (at manufacturer's dosage rate). Normally I dilute the dose in about 50ml tank water and pour into the tank...sometimes the fish get in the way as they are very nosy and hoping for more food! The Sparkler's tail was very tatty next morning and he/she was dead that afternoon. No obvious signs of aggression between species, just the odd flaring among the Sparklers and then they scoot off to their own corners in a well-planted tank.

What made me wonder is that Excel is gluteraldehyde which can breakdown proteins, so what happens if a fish paddles through a portion of relatively undiluted Excel?

Could it be food competition? I feed crushed flake supplemented on a rotation with crushed dried daphnia, tubifex and bloodworm. I have seen the Sparklers holding their own with the Cardinals and Dwarf Rasboras, but they are certainly less food aggressive. Does slow starvation lead to a sudden decline?

Or is it "just one of those things"?

All other fish are fine, only one case of larval migrans in a cardinal which was dealt to with two doses to the tank with prazi (thanks to another thread with lots of information from Jennifer ). The fish have all been together for about 3 months in a well established tank ,and they seem very confident and get excited when I put my face near the tank...dinnertime!

Tank Details:

Low tech longish tank; 46l excluding gravel; 2x15% water changes per week; well-planted (although nothing like the amazing ones seen in this forum!); dose Excel every two days, liquid fert weekly; add Cycle weekly; pH 5-ish before changes, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate very very low; 24oC at one end to 27oC at heater end; stocked with 6 cardinal tetras, 8 dwarf rasboras, 2 oto cats and now 1 Sparkling gourami

Thanks for your help

Cheers

PS Do you know where or how I can order green (false) neon tetras (P. simulans). Apparently very tight schoolers that aren't as big as Cardinal tetras and probably a better size compared with the rest of the nano-fish I've got!

[phoenix44]

When you dose with excel, under dose - particularly in smaller tanks. When fish can't tolerate the flourish the first symptom is what looks like a chemical burn.

From then on, it just spreads like wild fire wiping out any fish in its path. It is pretty nasty, and many often look at the 'burns' and think of fin rot.

Best thing to do is a massive water change, or better still take the fish out of the water they are currently in and put them in new water with no excel in there at all. Then keep a close look out for secondary infections. I've found stress coat really helpful at this stage, and it saved many of my clown loaches at one stage. Be prepared to lose a few fish, but in the best case scenario you won't lose any if you've caught the problem in time.

[Kipper]

Hi P44,

There doesn't seem to be anything really drastic going on. I tend to underdose the Excel (for my tank about 1ml every two days, and I use a syringe to measure it) and I normally add it to the half-weekly water change, but sometimes I just add it to the water after diluting in about 50mls tank water.

Each time only 1 fish was affected, the other sparklers were fine. The last one to go was certainly hovering around where I was adding the Excel as it was the really nosey one! I'm just wondering if there is a link, or something else going on. Certainly no symptoms in any of the other fish. Only tatty tails, rest of skin in the sick ones looked fine......

[phoenix44]

Yeah, its usually the nosey ones that get it the worst.

Here's a pic of one of my clowns that got it a few years ago - (All of them recovered thankfully)

you can see the tatty bits / 'burn' as I call it on the tail and face.

And these unlucky ones did not make it -

[Kipper]

Wow

Thanks for sharing those.

The skin on the dead Sparklers looked fine, nothing as dramatic as your piccies. I'm glad your guys pulled through. I usually use Stress-coat as the water conditioner, and I did a water change with the first sick fish (about 30%), to no avail. The new mega-test kit I picked up at the last Animates sale ( ) is showing the usual water parameters are fine.

Following up on the possible slow starvation leading to sudden death possibility, have you ever seen that happen?

[phoenix44]

....possible slow starvation leading to sudden death possibility, have you ever seen that happen?

It isn't something you would normally miss. The fish won't just suddenly drop dead one day; more-likely you will notice the fish becoming thinner and skinnier, its cranial structure would become very apparent (Refer my pic below) and its belly would be sunken in. It would most likely take weeks of starvation in a small fish like sparkling gouramis and can take months in larger fish. The fish first use their fat reserves and become less active when they undergo periods of starvation; then once the fat reserves are used muscle degeneration takes place in an attempt to harvest more energy. It is easy (efficient) to use fat reserves and not so efficient to use muscle as a last source of energy so at that point the downturn is much faster.

Stunted / Starved fish -

This particular specimen lived for 2 months+ once he started looking skinny. The pic was taken about three weeks to a month before she kicked the bucket.

[malevolentsparkle]

sorry to here about your situation. its made me worried about my fish. I use flourish comprehensive (the one with just micro neutrients), is that dangerous? or just the macro neutrient one?

[phoenix44]

Just flourish EXCEL.

[malevolentsparkle]

thats a relief, thanks

[Jennifer]

As long as you have lights going and other nutrients (which it sounds like you do), the Excel should be mostly gone in 24 hours.

I have a well planted 25cm cube tank (about 15 litres) with sparkling gourami and I add 0.1 mls of Excel (a couple of drops from the syringe) each day along with a similar amount of Flourish Comprehensive. I try to do a 50% water change once a week but there have been times that I have really neglected this tank. In any case, the gourami continue to thrive! Don't you just love their little rattling sound?

[Sophia]

after overdosing with Excel for a couple of weeks my corydora had clamped fins and looked decidely unhappy

not quite as unhappy as P44s but they wouldn't have been far off. They went from slightly under the weather- looking to very unhappy over a couple of days, it happened quite quickly

[Kipper]

As long as you have lights going and other nutrients (which it sounds like you do), the Excel should be mostly gone in 24 hours.

I have a well planted 25cm cube tank (about 15 litres) with sparkling gourami and I add 0.1 mls of Excel (a couple of drops from the syringe) each day along with a similar amount of Flourish Comprehensive. I try to do a 50% water change once a week but there have been times that I have really neglected this tank. In any case, the gourami continue to thrive! Don't you just love their little rattling sound?

Hi Jennifer,

The dosage rate I worked out from the Excel (can't help but think spreadsheets here ) bottle is 5 m/200L, which is about 1ml per 43L every 2 days. I'm starting to wonder if I should do a half dose. The tank is under spotlights in the kitchen (like I said, low tech ) and gets brightish (not direct) sunlight during the day when the sun appears here in Palmie! I've noticed when I prune the Alternathera is starts to produce slow bubbles at the cut stem, and the crypts and some Limnophila and Lilaeopsis are growing....not massivley fast...so something is working!

The Sparklers are cute little guys, although I haven't heard them croaking yet. The are very knowing fish quietly moving about the plants like submarines. Sad to be down to only one now.

Thanks for peoples input on the Excel conundrum.

[Kipper]

after overdosing with Excel for a couple of weeks my corydora had clamped fins and looked decidely unhappy

not quite as unhappy as P44s but they wouldn't have been far off. They went from slightly under the weather- looking to very unhappy over a couple of days, it happened quite quickly

Have you continued dosing, or reduced the Excel dose?

[Kipper]

It isn't something you would normally miss. The fish won't just suddenly drop dead one day; more-likely you will notice the fish becoming thinner and skinnier, its cranial structure would become very apparent (Refer my pic below) and its belly would be sunken in. It would most likely take weeks of starvation in a small fish like sparkling gouramis and can take months in larger fish. The fish first use their fat reserves and become less active when they undergo periods of starvation; then once the fat reserves are used muscle degeneration takes place in an attempt to harvest more energy. It is easy (efficient) to use fat reserves and not so efficient to use muscle as a last source of energy so at that point the downturn is much faster.

Stunted / Starved fish -

This particular specimen lived for 2 months+ once he started looking skinny. The pic was taken about three weeks to a month before she kicked the bucket.

Hi P44,

I can't tell if the Sparklers are too skinny...there isn't much meat on them in the first place , but they aren't doing a slow decline so I think that starvation is off the list of culprits. Again, thanks for the time you guys are putting into this.

[Jennifer]

The dosage rate I worked out from the Excel... is about 1ml per 43L every 2 days.

This is the dose I use, but I do half every day instead of a full dose every two days.

The tank is under spotlights in the kitchen...

If there is not a huge amount of light, or if there aren't many plants, they will not be using the carbon very quickly so it might pay to minimise the dose. However, I have used more than double the dose for weeks at a time with no problems, ever. I always am careful to gradually increase the dose over time (and dilute it in water before adding it).

The Sparklers are cute little guys, although I haven't heard them croaking yet. The are very knowing fish quietly moving about the plants like submarines.

:lol: Submarines...I love that!