Kermit Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 Dudes, i'l tell you's a little story. I've got a 4ft L x 1ft,6 H x 1ft,8 W tank, totaling 250L including sump. Great starter as after a month of strating it up i had text book levels 8.2-8.4 Ph 0.0 Ammonia 0.0 Nitrite 0.0 Nitrate 0.0 Phos 380-440 Calcium Even tho i had no traceable Phos, i've always had some green hair algae probably the test kit. everything was happy in this kingdom for seven to eight months, then i put some snails in to eat the lushis ugly algae oops lets say about to many of them obviously since then my ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates sky rocketed, the first to byte the dust was the two frog sporn corals so a major water change was done and since then my levels have stayed up high except for the ounce were it dropped back for a week. i'm constantly doing a 20% water change a week to try and keep ontop of it. I'm going to get some more rock and sand to cycle in a seperate system and introduce it to help with nitrification and give more area for bacteria to grow. But till that happens has anyone got any ideas???? i now have two polymous clowns, one purple tang, one banna wrasse, one bicolour blenny and a long nose butterfly fish in which i've started to feed every second day, instead of every day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 i doubt the snails contributed to your high nitrates etc (unless some of them died) how much water movement do you have? if not enough, build up of waste over live rock can eventually kill the good nitrifying bacteria that break ammonia into nitrites and nitrites to nitrates. this can surprisingly happen quite quickly. keep doing the water changes. you have reasonably maxed out stocking levels too dont you? are you sure you didnt over feed one day by accident? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 Three words. DSB (Deep Sand Bed) Make it an addition to your new tank. Make sure it can be isolated from the main system if all turns to crap. DBS's are extremely efficient at reducing nitrates and phosphates, along with many other complex organic molecules. I'm not for DSB's in display tanks, they look crap. Bed should be around 3-4" think, of the finest sand you can get. I have used plain old plasterers silica sand. Make sure it is washed well. The important part is that it has to be fine grained to be most efficient. If I could find carbonate based sand that fine, I would use it instead, but i've had no problems with silica sand, despite the unfounded myths that say it causes diatom blooms. What you are after is and oxygen gradient through the depth of the sand where various bacteria colonise and do their thing. If you see black streaks in the depth of the sand (through the side of the tank) this is a sign that some of the required bacteria has colonised. Most important thing is DON'T ever touch or disturb the bed. By exposing the inner layers of the bed, you expose all sorts of intermediate chemical, which are often very toxic, so they can diffuse into the water quickly, and kill your tank inhabitants. This is one of the reasons why I think they should be able to be isolated from the main system, if for whatever reason, the bed is disturbed, it can be removed from the system, so it doesn't affect your display tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 One other thing. I hear people go on about how feeding causes problems in their tank, so they feed less. I really don't like the sound of this. The amount of food fed should be determined by what your fish need, not by how much algae/cyano/diatoms the food causes. The tank will sort itself out given time and consistent feeding quantities. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 Just to partially hijack this thread... ... Layton, I read that crushed coral sand shouldn't be used in a reef tank. Thoughts? They say it's too fine it just traps detritus etc. If it were used in a DSB however, then it wouldn't be a problem? Reason I ask is I put about 1/2" high of crushed coral sand in my display tank mainly for better visual effect. Ever since I put it in, algae build up increased considerably and small amounts of cyano started showing. I have removed as much of it as possible from the tank now and am going to put a thin layer of coarse sand in instead (an aragonite base) I also have a 1" aragonite base sand in my refugium and am considering DSB for it instead. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 Crush coral would be all right for a DSB, but I wouldn't use it in a display. I use around 3-4mm grain size in my tank, around 1" thick. I keep it well stirred up to get rid of detritus. The problem with 1/2" of crush coral is that it's not deep enough to get the oxygen gradient necessary for all the process of a dsb to occur. So it does become a crap collector. With coarser sand in the display, you can stir it up to get rid of the detritus, without sand going everywhere. Personally I'd go for crushed coral DSB in the refugium, and the coarser stuff in the display. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 i thought that would be the case after looking at detritus building up on the sand bed!!! Sand bed looks really 'thick and gluggy' with crushed coral. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petplanet Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 All the snails do is get rid of the visable algae which they turn in to waste. They also add to the bio load of the tank. If you are concerned about phosphate just use a phosphate absorber. I use JBL's and find it to be very good. Tried Green X and it did nothing for my tank. My phosphate level was 5-10ppm (yes 5-10 not 0.5-1.0). Now it is 0-0.25ppm and I have nine fish, the smallest being 2 large clownfish. These guys are feed everyday and get 1/2 a sheet of nori everyday. No algae in the tank, havn't seen cyno for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 I assume you have no corals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kermit Posted November 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 Thanks for your replies guys. I have about a dozen corals two anemones two feather dusters(worms) and a 1" thick layer of sand in the display tank. I've got 2000L/hr going through the sump and 2 x 2000L/hr power heads in the tank blowing over the rock thats a 24 x turnover. The snails did create a lot of waste, yanked all but four of them out so between them and the fish the algae's kept under control. I tried seachem phosguard peletes and it did nothing at all, PO4 still says 0.0. Yeah i know i'm close to the limit of fish hence why big tank gonna happen. Skimmer pulls out about 30mL of crap a day. Fish are healthy nice and fat most of them feed off whats in the rocks except the clowns i feel i'm feeding clowns realy. Have thought of putting another holding tank in the sump to give me another 50L capacity. I think i'll put a thick sand bed in it now. cheers Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 No problem. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Three words. DSB (Deep Sand Bed) What you are after is and oxygen gradient through the depth of the sand where various bacteria colonise and do their thing. If you see black streaks in the depth of the sand (through the side of the tank) this is a sign that some of the required bacteria has colonised. quote] Do you grow your algae in this sand bed in your system or is it in another chamber. some articles sy you should haave two, one for algae and one for the sand bed, others rekon just one. TIM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Yeah my algae is in the same area. Don't see a need for a second. Is there any reason others use a separate area? Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fay Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 build up of waste over live rock I give my rocks a blow once a week with a power head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 *Insert blatant and obvious sexual innuendo here* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fay Posted November 13, 2004 Report Share Posted November 13, 2004 post corrected for those with over active imaginations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted November 13, 2004 Report Share Posted November 13, 2004 Sorry, I have no imagination... 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kermit Posted November 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 Yippy, my water quality is coming back to normal Last reading were Ph 8.0 Ammonia 0.0mg nitrite 0.0mg Nitrate 5.0mg Phosphate 0.0mg Yippy, thank you to everyone for your help. building sand bed this weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 Hey Kermit, Iv'e got the same size tank as you. I would advise to go and get a small/medium bottle of "CYCLE" and put a maximum allowable amount in your tank. The stuff works well. You cant overdose either. I put the second smallest bottle in mine and the bacteria colonies went off with a bang. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fay Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 GOOD TIP for Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 The articles i've read regarding 'Cycle' are not very flattering, no experance with it myself. Cracker - how do you know if it worked? You can't test for bacterria. OR can you? I personally don't think its worth the 'risk' or money. Most if not all the tanks from people on here were started and are running without the use of the 'snake oil' potions. No bottle can substitute for patience and a good routine. YMMV. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 On the contrary, I've only ever had brilliant success with cycle in my freshwater tanks in the past... and thats just from experience. Subject to this however, I agree with Pies in that 'dosing' is unnecessary for most requirements - instead, take heed of my signature below and try a bit of patience I give my rocks a blow once a week with a power head ditto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 Bacteria will colonise by itself, but "Cycle" does have it's place. During my cycle I had heaps of "off" rock and my ammonia went on & on & on. The nitrites just wouldnt kick in. So I gave it a boost with "Cycle" and within 2 days the nitrite was reading half way, and the ammonia was half gone. Also had a rotting crab in there and the bacteria kept up with the ammonia not allowing it to increase. A day later and the AM was gone and the Nites off the chart. Proof enough for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 I'm also going to add a small amount to all my water changes just to make me feel better! Oh for the reef Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kermit Posted November 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 O yeah my rock love the old Bj with the power head about ounce a fourtnight, may do it more regular from now on tho. Thinking of putting a spray bar in there to blow the crap out to. I'll look into this "CYCLE" product to, is it the same as "PRIME" or "AMOLOCK"? If so i've used these products when my tank levels first started to rise, did work well. Cheers Kermit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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