RnB Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 I wich to contribute further to this topic. I do not want the thread to become MORE disjointed, and some people do not wish to be constantly bombarded by discussions of price...... it looks like we will not let things lie if you keep killing the thread! Rather its deep resentment /opinion driving this thread Its better to ring fence us in one thread, after all there will be less effort required to delete that later :evil: I have never seen a locked thread on the saltwater forum before.... Now is not a good time to start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 I don't think there is any deep resentment. I can't speak for others but defiantly not on my part. I never got personal with any of my statements, and I never will. I think the thread was driven by ignorance more than anything else. I'm over it. I can't change anyones mind. But I can't help but think the hobby may be worse off in the long run from the events unfolding now. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 No resentment here or any animosity, that is other than the fact the we are being stopped from discussing it further. Layton - No seceret that I don't agree with your last statement. There is little if any doubt that the events happening now can only have a positive effect on the hobby, infact I see no negitives whatsoever. Competetion is healthy if not nessessary. If you can find some examples where competition has had a negitive effect (for the consumer) i'd be surprised. I can't get Telecom out of my mind. However I would like to say that just because I disagree with this point of view, doesn't mean I don't want to hear it. Who knows, maybee a point of view will be presented that will change my mind. Knowlege cannot be increased without debate. Alois announced some 'discounted corals' recently. Alois, whats the action here, any indication of costs and availability. I have a 1400 litre tank to fill. Steve/Nick. Whats up with you guys? Are you really doing something or is it a big stir? If its really happening any news for us? Prices, time frames or anything else? As I stated before I have a 1400 litre tank to fill. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 i dont believe the thread was ever driven by ignorance - discussion was stopped by ignorance. ignorance would have meant nothing would have ever been said and we all would have stuck with paying ludicrous prices for livestock and goods (no layton or moderators, its not a personal insult, its simply my opinion. if i were insulting, i would have said "pies you are a @#%" or something like that :lol: ). in addition, IMO, everyone that has the opinion as above in no way shape or form blames Alois for high prices. in fact, i think most praise the work he has done for the reefing community. the only blame to be laid is with the shops as its them that dictate market price. why do they charge high prices? because they can (and i would too if i were in the same position as them) hence (IMHO) that by having nick/steve bringing in some good competition will either force them to drop their prices OR lose business. now i'll just wait til the moderators have a read of this and lock down this thread for putting in a completely valid comment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted October 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 you could afford to start your own with the savings possible pies import setup i mean! 1400L is a lot of corals 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted October 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 ppppsssssstttttt wanna buy some cheap corals........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 If anyone wants to discuss it, just do it. I don't think the moderators have much issues really other than the personal attacks, insinuations, profanity, and attacking someones business etc. If price discussions had been done nicely, it would not have become an issue. To prove that, several prices have recently been discussed without moderator interferance, including my own discussion of the 6 line wrasse price. It depends where somebodies coming from how they see moderator interferance, but if I had been a "target" of some of the recent vitriole, I probably would have approved of the moderators moderating. All depends what side of the fence you're on, but end of the day, the moderators own the board. Another point, I have recently introduced a few new people to the board, and had no sooner done so than all this nasty stuff came up, made me ashamed to think they might read it. I'd have liked them to think most reefers were better than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted October 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 I , pies and others want to discuss it....... I would like those who think this topic should be banned to post saying so... so far everyone says go ahead and discuss, but keep personal things out! but the moderator has locked the thread, In my opinion they have lost touch with the community here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 i would have thought open discussion such as pricing would be beneficial to the community? i dont recall any attacks that were too personal? (except for one minor retort that i directed at layton) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 The fact is that the shops are vital for the hobby. If no shops stocked marine stuff, I would have no idea that the hobby even existed. Undercutting them is not to the benefit of the hobby. Shops don't charge what ever they like. Just like importers they have overheads, maybe even more so than importers. Retail space and staff don't come cheap. By selling direct to the public, or more correctly to the reefers you know, does nothing to get more people into the hobby. Getting new people into the hobby will increase volumes and in turn lower prices. I think everyone agrees that the key to lowering prices is increasing volume per quarantine facility. How is starting up another facility going to increase volume? All it's going to do is potentially take volume away from other importers, which is going to increase everyone's overheads, which really is the significant component in prices. How is the general public meant to stumble across New Zealand Reef Supplies Ltd or Pacificaquaria Ltd (Or whatever they are going to call it) with out a retail presence? Again, this will do nothing to increase volume. For people saying that competition is good no matter what. The fact is that some markets are not driven by the usual market forces. Browsers, wholesale electricity, even telecommunications are all examples of this. There seems to be a general consensus that the shops and importers are making a killing out of the hobby. I don't think this is true. I don't think prices are outrageously expensive as they are. Some things are cheaper, some more expensive than overseas. I'm all for lower prices, but not at the expense of the hobby as a whole in NZ. Anyway, this is all speculation. All that is known is that another facility is being setup. How, where, or even if stuff is being sold is unknown (to me anyway). BTW I think the moderation has been appropriate. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 What you are saying does make sense, however... I'm all for lower prices, but not at the expense of the hobby as a whole in NZ. That is where you and I have differing opinions. Lower prices, no matter how they are achieved is good for myself and others already in the community. However, lower prices also attracts new potential reefers into the hobby as well. How many times do you see a freshwater hobbyist posting a question in the saltwater section about wanting to start up a reef tank only to find that its going to cost the same as a small car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 But that's the thing. By bypassing shops, people new to the hobby,( and who don't frequent this board), don't have access to these "discount prices". Surely it's best to consolidate the importation into one or two facilities, and pass lower prices on through the shops? Everyone wins. Established reefers get lower prices through shops, the shops assist in promoting the hobby, and new potential reefers have access to lower prices, and more incentive to give the hobby a go. There are so many attributes which make this hobby interesting. It involves basic chemistry, biology, and teaches patience, and discipline (or a sort ). The more people the better. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 sure, but the shops will HAVE to discount prices in the first place in order to compete. it's like paying trade versus retail,... no one (should) pay retail for anything these days. sure, LFS have overheads but so does the $2 shop get enough people interested because of lower prices in the shops and everyone wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Lower prices, no matter how they are achieved is good for myself and others already in the community. And how often do we see the cut price merchants move in with stores that sell things way below the normal price, which causes the normal store to close it doors.... but then we find that a short time late the cut price store has increased their prices due to the market increase, but quite often their service is far below that of the original store. Of course there will be those that can sell at much lower prices, mainly because they have no overheads, or staff to pay, and so forth. Sit and do some figures to REALLY see what your retail outlet has to face, and how much the displays and stock that many take for granted really cost to upkeep. Your local Marine LFS has gone to great lengths to provide a service for the hobby, and competition is always a great way to reduce prices, but not at the cost of the few outlets that we already have. Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 But the shops won't discount prices. They don't have to compete, there are more lucrative things to sell than marine fish and coral. It would be cheaper and less risk for them to close the marine section altogether, than it would to sell below cost. That is the problem. I agree with what Pegasus said, and this is my issue. If however Nick and Steve are opening a retail shop in a prominent location, which random members of the public can wander in and see what the hobby has to offer, I would have no problem. ie setting up their own shop specialising in marine fish and inverts. It's increasing the profile of the hobby and has potential to draw new reefers. Chimera - sure the 2 dollar shop has overheads, but then look at the volume. There's a little bit more stock in the two dollar shop than you're average LFS marine section. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted October 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 it will be interesting to see how this pans out a) Wholesalers drop prices.... shops drop prices, volumes go up, more price reductions........ we can dream b) Wholesalers drop prices, shops drop prices, but not by much..... everyone gets annoyed nothing happens ... same same with 20% less then now, and a few people getting stuff under the table from wholesalers c) Wholesalers enter market, existing shops refuse to deal with them, wholesalers have to sell direct to get a return, do so via internet removing need for lots of overheads...... very possible business model here.... . . . z) Hobbist starts small transitional facility for personal use with say 5 others and just does this because he/she loves corals and seeing more people involved in the hobby. Shops still win as the hobbist does not want a parade of people through there house/display tank/s... so does not advertise widely.... beginers go to shops, larger hobbists go direct..... Hobby grows! could go any of these ways and several permeatations..... I think we will see Z happen because for the small co-operative that does option Z, there hobby will become cheap , sustainable and have a new dimension... Sounds quite like where we are at the moment really....... for the avergae punter that does not know an importer I don't think much will change, that would satisfy Layton, chimera, pies, me.... but not the stores as it will not take long for everyone to want special deals too..... human nature really... ideas here.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 RnB - That's the problem. It's not sustainable. If people sell without a retail presence to attract new customers, the shops will have fewer and fewer customers, making it unsustainable for them to even have a marine section, so they are forced to close it. Then there are no new people coming into the hobby, and volumes drop, forcing prices higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Your local Marine LFS has gone to great lengths to provide a service for the hobby, and competition is always a great way to reduce prices, but not at the cost of the few outlets that we already have great lengths to provide a service??? they have gone to great lengths to create a business. it's a dog eat dog world and its all supply and demand. low demand = less supply = higher prices. more demand = more competition and more supply = lower prices. now tell me HOW you will ever get more people into this hobby at the prices they sell at, regardless of whether LFS make margins or not. im taking a selfish approach and want lower prices - thats what i demand although not what LFS supply at a good price (sure, because of overheads etc) im looking at the equation from a consumers point of view, layton/pegagus are looking it at the suppliers point of view. IMO, i dont care who gets my dollar, so long as its the best deal (hence why all the higher priced goods in my setup are purchased overseas and livestock is bought as trades or through friends). LFS need keep up with the play - start selling goods at a discount online (alot fewer overheads there) the Internet is a great tool and ecomm is the way of the future,... how cliched... 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Hey Chim... You don't buy a Roller or a Jaguar if you can't afford the price of the gas to run it People setting up in Marines KNOW that the prices will be high, but the equation is simple... More hobbiest taking up Marines, means... More Shops selling them, which means... Lower prices. Sure you can buy "equipment" from OS Suppliers, and possibly save a few bucks, but your tanks would look pretty naked without Corals and fish and the likes, and "perhaps" you can get these from the persons mentioned... but what about the rest of NZ, and how would you feel when your local no longer stocks "anything" marine related..?. BTW: There were 170 odd online today folks he he. Hopefully the 160 odd extras were all keen on Marines Bill. Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 I think with regards to marines, LFS are providing more of a service. Like I said, there are more profitable things they could be using the space for. How do you expect people to get into the hobby if it's not physically accessible? I see people walk into pet shops and come across the marine section, and although it might not be presented the best, they are still in awe of it. Granted it will be too expensive for some, but for others it is definitely achievable. Now, if that marine section no longer exists, the people who would otherwise get into the hobby after seeing the fish and coral in the shops, have got no chance. How is opening an exclusive business to current hobbyists going to get more people into the hobby? It can't without a retail presence. How is diluting the volume of imports going to reduce prices to those looking at getting into the hobby?... it won't, it will have the opposite effect. Chimera - you are looking at it from an existing hobbyist point of view, I am looking at what is best for the long term benefit, and sustainability of the hobby. How about these over simplified equations: low demand + current # of suppliers = current prices low demand + higher # of suppliers = higher prices more demand + current # of suppliers = lower prices more demand + higher # of suppliers = current prices Selfish is right. There has been a lot of work done in this country by a few people to even have this hobby available as an option here. People like, Bob at Redwoods, the late Eddie from Petworld have all been in the hobby for 30+ years bringing stuff in from the days when little was know about keeping many types of coral. More recently importers in Auckland have added many species of soft coral, which were once illegal imports. To give you lower priced coral and fish at the expense of the shops which provide public access to the hobby is selfish. IMO Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted October 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 no one wants to see shops close..... and no one wants to pay retail..... yeah right. until now maybe there have not been people in the hobby who have had either the capital, or the desire to invest the $$ to get a facility up to scratch and start up. Alois being the exception. there will soon be more approved transitional facilities then retail outlets hehehehe There will have to be a shakeout here, its not sustainable. I think that alois and steve will be around longer then some store outlets, massey pets will probably go, shame i like them but just do not see enough support for them long term. Steve and alois are hobby businesses with low cash burn! I am sure that steve and nick are busy promoting this as a business, they have to IRD does not let you depreciate hobby capital goods :lol: but none of us here believe that alois or steve or nick or anyone else is making enough out of marines to support a familly.... come on these are smart guys who like an above average income...... If these guys coupled high end tropicals like discus into the mix then maybe just maybe there is a real business! I think steve and nick are doing this so they personally can turn an expensive hobby into at worst a breakeven venture... and hopefully see other hobbists get cheaper corals/fish. and becasue they can import corals for personal use cheaper then others will sell to them on any "special deal" I am going to watch and see how the prices move and what deals Nick and Steve and others will cut in the brave new competitive world we are all going to embrace..... But I personally think the answer to all our price demands is a co-operative model, not more wholesalers. Like a yacht club or golf club or any other organised well run club, where costs are shared and enough operating margin is generated to more forward and develope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted October 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 off reef central I just got my purple linkia today from www.fishsupply.com and it looks great. It is cruising my tank right now. I payed 14 online and my LFS wants $45. its already happened in the US and there are still lots of LFS..... as there will be here. but the glory days of $120 corals and $300 purple tangs are about to end IMHO,. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted October 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 maybe i should sell everything now.. in anticipation.... http://www.fishsupply.com/cgi-bin/f2/common/store.cgi?dbname=f2&mode=item&path=top/X/XH/FTL00-11412 http://www.fishsupply.com/cgi-bin/f2/common/store.cgi?dbname=f2&path=top/X/XH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 low demand + higher # of suppliers = higher prices hmmmmmm? it's rare that this occurs in the market especially when there are options to purchase overseas nowadays. an extra importer (nick/steve) is certainly not going to kill the LFS market. i would suspect if heaps of people started doing this many would not survive long... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Just reading your other post RnB... http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/viewto ... 0835#40835 Where you say... IMHO there is no need for name calling or smart as* wise cracks about others. I just do not understand why lock a thread??? But then say... There will have to be a shakeout here, its not sustainable. I think that alois and steve will be around longer then some store outlets, massey pets will probably go, shame i like them but just do not see enough support for them long term. Which is one of the reasons that action was taken by the Admin against the other thread. Your comments about this company are really unjustified. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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