Guest Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 Hi guys, I'm currenly setting up a blue ram breeding experiment. I've got 2 breeding pairs of blue rams, 1 pair eats it's eggs soon after breeding and the other pair will raise their babies as long as you don't feed them bbs (they mistake the babies for bbs and keep sucking up and spitting them out till the babies die ). What I'm going to do is keep both pairs in a 60 litre tank that is all set up with rocks with different sufaces and a rock cave that leans against the glass so I can see in it and a few small sword plants in between the rocks for a bit of cover just incase one pair gets a bit aggro (I'll put pics up later of setup). What I want to see is if having another pair of rams in the same tank when they breed will make them gaurd their eggs and young better instead of just eating them. I got this idea when I heard that if you put a slower fish that doesn't hide in the same tank it will help the parents gaurd the babies better so I thought I'd try it with another pair of rams and see what happens. What do you guys think of this idea? All advice is welcome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 It is quite often suggested to stick something tough in the tank with them so they concentrate on beating that fish up rather than eating the eggs, another way is to put them in a tank with a divider so they can see the other fish and still be all protective but the other fish can't eat the eggs.. Personally I would say 60L is too small for both pairs to establish territories and be happy it will be interesting to see if they get along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 i have the best results when i use golden sand as the substrate. they dit many pits in the sand, but only lay in one of them. the others serve as decoys. i also put about 2 -3 ceramic pots in there, occasionally they usedto lay in there too. only ate a couple of batches.. and then the other batches were reared all the way to maturity. they went as far as to have more than one batch in the tank. you may also find that the rams hide the babies in the pots, and come out for food. dont worry about feeding them in this case - the parents sometimes spit food out to the babies... fittest babies survive. this fish guy that taught me a lot of what i know said fish eating their offsping is a genetic trait. they eat the first few batches - theory being the parent fish- mainly the male only wants to pass down the strongest genes to the next generation. when the appropriate batch comes along - the parents will take good care of the kids, and defend them as is needed. there is a whole lot of genetic research to back this theory in other animals but not so much in fish - but i take it that the same applies. it makes sense, even though im sure the fish isnt thinking "hmmm.. if i kill this batch ill have a stronger batch next time" :lol: its all about ensuring that the males genes are passed on to the next generation. hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 I have tried over 50 times with at least 10 different pairs of blue rams and only once have I seen the parents look after the young and then only for a fortnight. That pair were very young and had only spawned 4 or 5 times before this and had at least 5 other spawns after that that I left the eggs in for, and in the same conditions every other time they ate them on the 2nd day. I have to admit though that one time was cool, watching mum and dad with fry. Its probably why I keep trying it. I hope your test work but I will agree with Ryan that a 60ltr might be a bit small for 2 pairs. Good Luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caserole Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 Double post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caserole Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 Cam it's a great idea. However.. Just to let you see the code the other replies use:- 60ltr might be a bit small for 2 pairs. Good Luck They are being extremely polite!!! A 60lt tank is at least 30lt to small to try this experiment in. You may loose a valuable fish from your successful pair, DO YOU REALLY WANT TO RISK THAT! I know your young and wanting to try different things and that's great, really great - I do mean that. But there are some rules that need to be meet when breeding different species, as long as new ideas still meet the rules they should work. Pairs of South American Dwarf Cichlids DEMAND a minimum territory form other Pairs of South American Dwarf Cichlids, 30mmsq is fool hardy! Even keeping a trio (1m & 2 females) in a 90lt tank is hard with out removing line of sight from 1 female to the other, and if both should breed at the same time the male may have no where to go. But I could be wrong and I'm very happy for you to prove that. As it would be valuable new information to add to the knowledge if it works. I wish you no bad luck! Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 Thanks for the advice guys, I've now decided to put them in my devided tank next to each other so they'll have 60ltrs each to breed in. I'll post pics when I've moved them over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caserole Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 Yes, yes. Much better, you will get the effect but not the risk. Good luck, let us know what you find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 lol yes I was being diplomatic there caserole but yeah the odds of it working were slim, I had hoped that when Cam saw his fish smashing each other then he would remove and save them, sounds like he has a good plan now though. Phoenix you seem to have fish that do things that go against everything else I have seen and read around the net, you have blue rams that raise babies to adulthood and not eat their fry when they want to spawn again like all the south american pair forming cichlids I have kept or researched. Usually they drive off their babies and if the babies cant hide they are eaten. Phonenix you bring up some interesting random information I know you mention studies have you found any to back up your theories? I thought that the fishes way of ensuring their genes survive is to select the strongest biggest most colourful mates, and then breed guard their eggs and let their babies survive? Nature would decide which ones are the strongest, smartest and fastest and live to adulthood? I didn't think that subsequent batches would be any stronger or weaker genetically than previous ones (assuming same conditions and parents) nor that the parents would be able to tell esp if they are eating wrigglers, can understand if the eggs are infertile and they eat them. Personally I think it is genetic and I think that the rams are getting so inbred, mass produced and so far away from nature they are loosing instincts (like raising their babies) which they need as a species to survive in nature. I have kept many pairs and not seen any that are descent parents was amazed to see Bilbo's looking after their babies it was a shame they didn't again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 :lol: maybe my fish are.... "different" lol. i only apply what i have learn from books etc to what i see. i must admit i have not done research with the intent to find information that relates to genetic traits etc etc... i had a pair of rams that were good parents and they took care of their kids till the kids were distinctly fish looking.. prob. about 2+cms give or take. like in my bio lectures at uni - we learnt that animals learn some behaviours from their parents. behaviours that arent genetically programmed in. so when i heard that fish that are taken care of by their parents are likely to take care of their own kids - I sit there going ÿep! that makes sense :lol: youre right is saying that "the fishes way of ensuring their genes survive is to select the strongest biggest most colourful mates, and then breed guard their eggs and let their babies survive? Nature would decide which ones are the strongest, smartest and fastest and live to adulthood" but i think the parents... particularly the males ensure that their genes are carried on to the future generations.. we see this in many species, where the male visits many females :lol: and tries getting it on with as many as he can. I'm only applying this to a particular case. but yes, i could be wrong.. its just that the theory fits snugly :lol: sorry for any confusion caused :oops: oh! and when you say "rams are getting so inbred, mass produced and so far away from nature they are loosing instincts" I agree 100%. I just wish we had a ready supply of fresh healthy imports. but i just wish we knew for certain what instincts were learned and which were innate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 My pair would raised their babies for a week but once I fed them bbs they dissapeared that night after the parents picking them up them spitting them out again. My new pair has been eating their eggs. The setup on the right was quickly setup tonight and has the pair that raises there babies and the ones on the left eat their eggs. Heres a pic of the setup: Heres a pic of the pair that eats their eggs: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 Also my female wfrom the pair I recently got has her egg tube sticking out BUT she only bred 4 days ago. I thoguht it took atleast a week for them to breed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caserole Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 Strange, I wrote a post regarding wild and aquarium breed Dwarfs and it's not here???, I wonder where I put it :lol: Cam Is there a place the 2 pairs can breed out of site of each other? I wonder if thats where they would breed every time, me thinks so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 Theres not many places where they can go but theres a few. I'll have to wait and find out, why do you think the females breeding tube thing is out? it's not out fully but is out a bit like how they go when they're finding a place to breed and cleaning it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caserole Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 why do you think the females breeding tube thing is out? My comment had nothing to do with that, it was about future spawns and where they would place their eggs - only, You read something into my comment that was not there. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 Yeah I know what you meant, that they'd lay their eggs where the other pair can't see but I wanted to know if you knew why the female who bred 4 days ago has her egg tube out? :lol: 8) . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caserole Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 Bugger If I know, Ask her :lol: :lol: , things like that happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 lol. I guess I'll have to wait and see then. She didn't seem to want to tell me much when I did ask her thoguh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave+Amy Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Hey Cam, I see that my girl you got off me has her breeding tube out again - usually a sign that she'll lay in 1-2days. Told you I had trouble keeping up with her spawning all the time! By the way your set up looks awesome. Keep us posted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 The girl hasn't been cleaning the rocks or anything yet but hopefully they'll breed soon, my original pair has been cleaning every rock in the tank but I think they still need to wait a bit as they usually have a alonger period in between breeding. The females have really been trying to get each other where yesterday it was the males. I'll let you know when they breed and see if caserole is right about them breeding out of the other pair veiw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 One of my blue ram pairs has bred toinight and they laid them semi hidden from the other pair so caserole was right. The pair that bred were the pair that doesn't eat their eggs. with the other pair that eats the eggs I swapped the males with another one that dave+amy gave me so maybe they won't eat their eggs. I thought I'd try it anyway. I've also got a pair of gold balloon rams which look like they might breed :bounce: . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave+Amy Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Tell me how things go with the new male - from what I remember he's bigger than the male from the original pair. You've got to update with photos of fry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 I'm thinking about taking the fry away once their free swimming. The males are the same size and the only way to tell the difference is one has a slightly bent dorsal ray thing. I may have have a 60ltr tank with the fry in it and I'll put a few spawns of fry in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave+Amy Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 I think you'll always raise more when you take them away from their parents but the downside the weak ones aren't culled by their dad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Good work Cam good luck raising them Weaker ones should struggle and not grow as well as the others, it is your choice to cull them or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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