Fishless cycling+Algae... Help!

[Lucas]

I am probably half way through cycling (fishless) my 100L tank. I have been dosing with pure ammonia as per instructions found online. Maybe I should have just cycled the old fashion way, but I thought I'd give this a go.

Beard algae has started to grow on the plants and bog wood, and brown algae is forming a thick covering on leaves of the plants. I fear for their lives! Cleaning is tricky because the ammonia/nitrite is caustic and I have fairly sensitive skin.

So far I have Nitrite which keeps a fairly steady reading of 2 ppm. I also have Nitrate, but it's hard to measure (poor test kit/inexperienced user?) but looks to be at least 20ppm?

My main question is; If I choose to abort the fishless cycling now, would there already be adequate bacteria built up to support one algae eating fish like a SAE? After a major water change and flush! :-?

[mitzy]

I have heard or read the floush excell gets rid of algae, Not sure if you could use it with what you are doing. I dont know if I would start again with the cycle as you already got the algae and My algae eater did not seem to touch the black algae but maybe my one was lazy.

[Naz_Nomad]

The very high nitrate is causing the algae to grow. The nitrite is probably only present because you're still dosing amonia. Nitrifying bacteria convert ammonia to nitrite then nitrite to nitrate.

If your nitrite is 2 and steady and nitrate is as high as 20, then your cycling is probably complete - leave the ammonia out for a few days. If the ammonia and nitrite levels drop, then you're done and dusted. How long has your tank been cycling and what levels did you dose the ammonia to? Fishless (ammonia) cycling is usually complete after the first nitrite spike and when the nitrate starts to show.

Do a large water change before adding fish. Add your SAE's and a couple of bristlenose and all should be good, the algae will start to diminish very quickly if you don't bother feeding them any other supplimentary food, sounds like there is enough in there to feed them anyway!

Alternatively, get yourself a scraper thing on a long stick - they're fairly cheap at most aquarium stores - and use that to clear algae. Not much good for plants, admittedly, but great for rocks, wood and glass.

[Lucas]

The ammonia I add every morning and evening quickly drops to zero by the next scheduled dosing (several drops - weak ammonia). Been cycling for about 2 weeks now.

I'm glad the first replies aren't saying "you're crazy, why are you fishless cycling"!!! I must admit it feels like some kind of crazy science experiment at the moment. I might go and get a white lab coat to complete the picture

[Naz_Nomad]

Stop adding ammonia.

Do a huge water change - 50% or so.

Check your water parameters after 24 hours. If there's no ammonia or nitrite, add a few fish because your cycle is complete.

And no, fishless cycling isn't mad scientist stuff, it's tried and tested and in europe it's the most popular way to quickly cycle tanks without stressing or endangering fish.

[Ianab]

I agree with Naz, stop adding ammonia now. If the ammonia and nitrite drop to zero within a couple of days then you have some level of cycle working. That means it's safe to add a few fish after you do a large partial water change to reduce the nitrate level.

You dont really know exactly what level of cycle the tank is at, but you have some, and if you now build up the fish numbers slowly as you normally would, no problemo.

Ian

[Lucas]

Cool! Are Siemese Algae Eaters funny about going into a freshly cycled tank?

If I also want to put in Leopard Corys and Pearl Gouramis, what order should I add them or does it not matter?

Also, I'm on farm well water (that shows no nitrite, but a little Nitrate) so is any kind of conditioning or ageing of the water necessary?

[Ianab]

I dont think any of those are especially fussy about water quality, and your ammonia and nitrite should stay close to zero anyway. That was the whole idea of the fishless cycle.

Your well water should be fine, no need to treat it. No chlorine has been added. A little nitrate is not a problem.

Ian

[Lucas]

If I take the ammonia away for a couple of days, does that affect the nitrobacteria?

[Zabman]

I Cycled my most recent tank a little differently.

Whenever I completed a water change from the aquarium with my plec, I would add the removed water to the tank I was cycling (Mr. Plec, affectionately known as Spot, tends to generate more waste than I do!)

The water had all of Spots waste and seemed to work well. Has anyone else tried doing it this way?

[Ianab]

If I take the ammonia away for a couple of days, does that affect the nitrobacteria?

It does, but they wont all instantly die off. Just dont leave it to long before you get some fish in there. 24-48 hours is OK.

Ian

[Lucas]

Hey, thanks heaps for the advice! I'll do as you suggest and check nitrite levels tomorrow afternoon.

I'll keep you updated

[Ianab]

I Cycled my most recent tank a little differently.

Whenever I completed a water change from the aquarium with my plec, I would add the removed water to the tank I was cycling (Mr. Plec, affectionately known as Spot, tends to generate more waste than I do!)

The water had all of Spots waste and seemed to work well. Has anyone else tried doing it this way?

Used tank water isn't the best way to cycle. It may contain a few cycle bacteria, but 99% of them live on the solid surfaces in the tank. Most of them are in the filter media as that has the high surface area, and the best water flow.

If you want to jumpstart the cycle in a new tank, take some media from an established filter and swap it into the new tanks filter. You can also use gravel from an established tank, or even better run a spare filter in an established tank to precycle it for the new tank. Thats what I do, just keep a spare internal filter in another tank, then it's ready to go whenever I want to set up a new tank.

But once you have an established tank there is really no reason to have to start from scratch again. You have lots of real live bacteria in your established tank, its just a matter of moving a few to the new tank.

Ian

[Zabman]

Thanks Ian.

I don't think I explained myself very well! I take the waste from one tank and chuck it into the one I am cycling. Had never done it before but it worked ok.

[Ianab]

Thanks Ian.

I don't think I explained myself very well! I take the waste from one tank and chuck it into the one I am cycling. Had never done it before but it worked ok.

Ahh... OK

The 'stuff' you are moving over will be both a source of ammonia and have some bacteria attached, so yes it will work. Just you will end up with a kinda messy new tank.

I like to shortcut the cycle with filter or media, instant cycle and just add the first few fish at the same time.

Cheers

Ian

[Lucas]

I was moving the spray bar this afternoon and I squeezed the pipe that leads to it. Some thin white material came out of the spraybar and I had a closer look and noticed that all of the pipe internal surfaces are covered with it.

Is that likely to be nitrobacteria? It certainly wasn't green or brown like algae!

[alanmin4304]

No, just gunge.

[alanmin4304]

When someone can explain to me the direct relationship between the ammonia added and the fish added at completion of fishless cycling I will be absolutely convinced that it is less cruel than doing what grandad did before it all became a science experiment. If you add plants then fish slowly the balance will be established and maintained at the leval that it requires for the fish load that you intend. Just because it is popular in Europe does not make it the best way. I personally think it is cruel to do fishless cycling.

[Lucas]

Why do you say that Alan? Tho, I have heard that certain types of beneficial bacteria may not be propagated in the fishless cycle... is that why you take that stand?

I kinda thought that if you even partially set up the cycle, your first fish can 'hit the ground running' / 'hit the water swimming'?

If the first fish from a 'fish instigated cycle' should survive, would it's health not be compromised from the beginning? Would that fish then create a suseptability to disease in your community? I don't know the answer to this for sure. Just posing the question.

[alanmin4304]

Fish will give off a certain amount of urea and other nitrogen compounds that will be converted to amonia, nitrite and nitrate by a range of bacteria that will grow to balance with the food (waste) being produced. Adding ammonia or dead shrimps (which produce ammonia as they decompose) will encourage the bacteria to multiply to balance with the ammonia added or produced by rotting shrimps. This will have no relatioship to the load produced by the fish you suddenly plonk in the tank when you think it has been cycled and the tank will actually start cycling again. If you add your fish slowly the bacteria will increase proportionately to the load from the fish and the whole setup will be in sync with the aquarium you wish to establish and they can all run off and join the green party.

[Lucas]

HAhahaha... yes I'll make sure to post political updates on the back wall of my tank. :lol:

My next question is.. If the bacteria has to suddenly die off according to reduced bioload, will that have a negative effect on the new arrivals? Does the dead bacteria affect the remaining living bacteria or the fish?

I definitely see the sense in your argument to add fish slowly after the basic cycle is set up.

[alanmin4304]

Yes, but do you see the sense in adding the fish slowly in order to complete the cycle. An excess of bacteria will cause a die off and extra minerals in the water (like when you kill off cyanobacteria with antibiotics). and not enough will cause an NH3 spike until the bugs catch up with the nutrient from the fish.

My point is that your tank will be cycled and in balance with 3drops of NH3 or 2 dead prawns, but not the fish that you add all at once or slowly----there is no co relationship between two dead prawns and the fish you add.

[Lucas]

Absolutely. I never did want to add ammonia to the tank for weeks to supercharge the nitro-cycle in prep to fully stock. Some articles online claim that you can do that, but I don't think I'm convinced it would be safe. I reckon that's when it would be cruel (for the reasons you suggested)

I figured there would be an imbalance with the fishless cycle, but now I'm curious; whats worse... excess minerals from the deceased bacteria or an ammonia spike??? :-?

If I had begun the cycle with a fish.. with no established cycle whatsoever, I imagine this would have created an ammonia spike higher than if some level of nitro-cycle was set up to support that first fish (by means of fishless cycling)?

Without wanting to sound like an animal rights fanatic; How does cycling (with a fish) effect that fish if it does survive?

Posts from other members would be appreciated also!

[FreedingFrenzy]

Without wanting to sound like an animal rights fanatic; How does cycling (with a fish) effect that fish if it does survive?

I'll let you know. Just put my fish straight into a new tank. They should be fine though as I cheated slightly and moved my old filter and a bit of the old tank water with them. Although it is going from a 70L tank to a 160L tank so there is still quite a significant amount of new bacteria thats gonna have to be er.. created.

[alanmin4304]

Provided you add fish slowly all will be well, and everthing will adjust naturally to form the equilibrium required. Eat the dead shrimps and use the NH3 to clean the glass on the outside of the tank.