MrEd Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 I bought in a couple of female Apisto's which both developed dropsy .... hadn't seen it till then and thought it may have been caused by overeating as I was trying to fatten them up to breed! I went fishing and tryed Epsom Salts on them with not even a slight improvement and were euthanised when they stopped eating. The water from that tank is shared with another and my huge male bitaeniata and 2 months later he now has it also and the female is showing early signs also. I unfortunately restocked the other tank after a couple of 1/2 water changes and gravel vacs and am now worried about them. A friend who was into fish just told me he read where it was caused by a virus and then secondary infections developed from that causing the swelling. He also said fish can occasionally recover with antibiotics but never totally get rid of it which I guess would stand up to Dropsy being viral. I'm going to play safe and remove the other fish in the same system and clean everything out and steralize with something .... any ideas on possible virus killers? I do have TriFilm which is an anti-viral steralizer used in hospitals and plant nurseries but will have to be flushed out well as it is highly toxic to fish and will be a last resort! I hope it goes no further as the bitaeniata pair had fry which are in another tank! I had been doing weekly waterchanges but got short on water over summer and resorted to two, 2 weekly changes and don't know if that contributed to the outbreak but other greater stocked tanks were fine .... mind you didn't have infected fish in them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilknieval69 Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 I would definitely say that dropsy is contagious, and if i suspected a fish had it, i would either euthanise instantly, or remove them to another tank of their own. It is not worth the risk, because as far as i'm aware, dropsy cannot be cured Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrienne Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 I have to say that I had thought it was only contagious if the fish died in the tank, however on the few occasions that my fish have had it it was always more than one developed it over a few weeks. I also know that my fish have only ever developed it when they have been fed a diet high in bloodworms. When feeding these only once a week or a fortnight there are no problems but when trying to get fish into good breeding condition I have to risk it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 Cant offer much advice on this one sorry man, I hope your fish make it though, ive still got to make it out to see you and your fish and maybe buy some if you've got any for sale. As for something to sterilize your tank, try bleach (rinse well) or really concentrated salty water for a while.. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopy Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 I wrote this as a summary of what one of my books has to say about Dropsy for another forum but could be useful here too. Dropsy is one of those fustratingly bizzare things that comes with many possible causes and not many solutions. a summary i have just read in one of my books here says: It has still not been established as to whether it is viruses or bacteria which cause the signs of dropsy. Viruses do affect the fish but bacteria are always involved so that at times they are seen to be the primary cause. Almost all species of fish can be affected. The bacteria can remain viable in the tank and reproduce for months in the water and silt. They belong to the normal bacterial flora of the tank and healthy fish can resist them. Fish are at risk only when starved, stressed, cold, have a poor diet or unsanitary conditions. Once a fish is infected, it releases large numbers of bacteria usually by discharging large amounts of fluid into the body cavity and also exposing tankmates to the disease. The fluid build up is recognised as the "pinecone" effect. Other symptoms can possibly be - skin lesions and "vesicles" along the lateral line. "a vesicle is a relatively small intracellular, membrane-enclosed sac that stores or transports substances" - lack their "flight" reflex or show no fear - ocular reflex is weak (the thing that makes your eyes stay fixed on something when you turn your head ) - anus is often inflamed and sometimes puffed out - fins clamped - possible anemia making the gills pale - popeye and a whole lot of other gross things can be going on inside the infected fish that we can see so won't worry about listing. Treatment is possible in the early stages (probably before many of us would notice there is something wrong) Affected fish should be removed and any other suspects. The only medication i could see that is available to us to try treating with is - Tetracycline From what i can gather so far as well, it is usually "gram positive" bacteria that are found in infected fish; so any antibacterial treatment for gram positive bacteria should be a good shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEd Posted February 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 Thanks for the replies. As far as food goes they were getting mostly live, mozzies, daphnia, fruitfly maggots and tubifex with occasional bloodworms. Been meaning to visit you Ryan and bring up some fish but not a good idea at the moment! Thanks for that info Loopy as the bacteria remaining active for months ties in! Fish are at risk only when starved, stressed, cold, have a poor diet or unsanitary conditions. As for a stress trigger none of those really apply though it could be the water temperature as the tank is the highest in the room and some days got up to 29 C. I'm fairly fussy with the water quality but as I say I went fortnightly instead of weekly (always gravel vac so very little sediment) so maybe this and the temp is what triggered it? I wondered how long the virus/bacteria lives in the fish before it shows outward symptoms? All the sick fish have come from the same tank and I have 9 tanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEd Posted February 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 Just found some Flucloxacillin capsules .... any one know if will be effective and what rate? They are in a 40 litre isolation tank. Also anyone had Cory's get it? It sounds like now that the heat and drought has gone I might get some stress free healthy fishies again! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 I have always regarded dropsy to be incurable in practice. By the time you spot the symptoms it is pretty well too late. The swelling is caused by fluid retention as a result of kidney damage that can be caused by a number of things. To treat for a virus is not easy and antibiotics work on bacteria. Formaldehyde might do the trick but it is pretty nasty. To kill hydra you can use 6mls of 35% formalin soln/100litres and it has no effect on fish or plant according to my reference. At 12mls/100litres (for planaria) it advises to remove fish. I have used it at high strength without plant or fish to kill planaria and it worked so I have no knowledge of its effect on both. It is likely that the remaining fish will die anyway so it may be worth a go and it may clean up the tank. It is deadly stuff. I couldn't get it from the chemist but I got it OK from a vet. I think farmers use it for foot rot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEd Posted February 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 Agreed about advanced dropsy Alan just my female is just starting to puff up and I haven't been fattening her to spawn .... no pinecone look yet! My big male is history! I did use Formaldehyde to steralize plant nursery pots and trays but not at all pleasant to work with and requires a respirator and not many places use it any more. Tri Film is more effective on viruses and user friendly ...... plus I have it! After reading Loopy's article about it being bought on by stress would you still go to the trouble of steralizing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 I have never successfully treated it yet but it may be that it is too late by the time I spot it. I haven't had it in years but some fish are susceptable and I stay away from them. I was thinking of the article and it saying that it started with a virus. It is like a lot of diseases where fish can resist them until weakened by stress. It might put a kink in the virus but it is nasty stuff and plants and fish don't like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrienne Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 I tried formalin once with one of my fighters but as with every other thing I have tried for dropsy nothing worked. I think its a bit like say kidney failure in humans, you can't repair it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 I don't think there is a practical cure I was thinking more of the possibility of slowing down the cause and maybe preventing the problem in the remaining fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMAZONIAN Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 Hi All. Dropsy is a terminal disease with no known cure. It is very very prevalent in Colisa lalia, the Dwarf gourami. :roll: It is also a "CONGENITAL" affliction caused by breeding a lot of species of fish in soft, acid water. It has something to due with the lack of hardness and is sometimes cured by adding water from the "Keeping"tank of the parents to the water the fry are in. The addition of ordinary tap water also seems to help the affliction. The malady is very well documented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEd Posted February 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 Hi Amazonian. Wouldn't using hard water on my Appisto's stress them further and make them more vulnerable? I'm not really trying to cure the sick (resolved to their fate) but rather since all the Dropsy infected fish have come from the one tank system, I am trying to prevent a reoccurance! I am experimenting with a female with early signs in a isolation tank with Flucloxacilin & Epsoms but I don't hold hope! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 I had a sword that I thought had dropsy recently she was swelling up line like a pine cone and all sad and not eating etc.. I stuck her in a small container with epsoms and melafix and left her alone for a while she regained her appetite and scales went down however she was left with a bend her her body that wasn't there before and although she recovered I got rid of her to ensure she didn't breed and pass on any dodgy gene's. Mred you know your welcome to call though and say hi both Win and I would welcome the visit, if you do call through get in touch let me know what you may have for sale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEd Posted February 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 Thanks Ryan and I do intend to visit you and Win.... Cheers! The odd thing I found with Dropsy in my fish is they ate normally, even with bloated bellies and pine cone bodies, and didn't stop until near death! The fish I'm experimenting with I don't think I'd put back even if she seemed to make a full recovery as it isn't worth the risk based on my recent outbreak! Maybe all the fish were under stress so were vulnerable or maybe there are different viruses and bacteria at work that are more contagious than others causing the same outward symptoms but what ever the case I'm going to be more careful with a more stable environment and hopefully it will not rear it's ugly head again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 I understand there are a number of causes of dropsy. The characteristic signs are indicative of fluid retention through kidney failure but there may be a range of causes. That is one reason why it is hard to cure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEd Posted March 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 Hi all Just updating you on my Dropsy. I have had no further cases of it and one of my Appisto bitaeniata females treated with Epsoms + Flucloxacillin (mid Feb) for 4 weeks, who looked like she had fallen off a pine tree died but another which just starting to puff up has had her scales return to normal though her head still appears swollen. While she is still alive she is definately not healthy and is permanantly black and not her normal relaxed yellow. She won't be going back into the breeding tank (in quarantene) or mixed with other fish and will probably just end up putting her down but will keep her going to see if she improves until I need the tank ..... sorry babe! :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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