Help! Fish dropping like flies...

[Kelsta]

I hope someone can help... Hubby and I have lost 3 WCMM and 1 Borneo sucker fish now and we don't know what's killing them.

They don't seem to have many symptoms, but we've noticed the minnows sometimes 'shivering' before they die, and they SEEM to have red, inflamed gills. Even the sucker who died today had red, inflamed gills, and one was more swollen than the other.

What could it be?

[snookie]

What are water Parameters , tank size etc.. ?

[evilknieval69]

I can't offer any help as to what may be wrong, but make sure your water is clean, and the filter is working properly.

Good luck

[Kelsta]

The tank is 140 litres.

Trickle filter.

Four Fantail Goldfish

Three Borneo Suckers

Five Minnow

In the last two weeks we have lost three Minnow and one sucker.

We do water changes once a week and add conditioner and cycle.

[Ianab]

Inflamed gills could be due to ammonia in the water

How long has the tank been set up and what filtering does it have?

As an emergency treatment I would do a large water change (50%) NOW. It may not help, but it shouldn't make things worse and might help keep your fish alive while you fix the problem.

Cheers

Ian

[Kelsta]

We did a 50% water change today, adding Prime (ager) and Cycle.

Will we need a testing kit to test the ammonia levels? Wouldn't have a clue what they are.

The tank is only 4 weeks (or 5?) old. Has a trickle filter with foam, ceramic tubes, activated carbon (Bio Chem Zorb).

We had to treat with Wunder Tonic recently for fungal infection due to food getting stuck and going bad. Other than that - can't think what's wrong. Perhaps the ammonia? Would that mean they have been stressed in some way???

[Kelsta]

Well, I guess the next step is to test the water but we'll have to buy a testing kit tomorrow.

We'd still apreciate any ideas from anyone out there - we never had any problems at all in our little 30 litre tank with 2 fantails... this is pretty scary.

Do youthink parasites or gill flukes could be eliminated then? They haven't been flashing apart from VERY rarely - like once every few days - not like a constat itch.

Geez, not knowing is awful...

[herefishiefishie]

New tank syndrome. To cycle a tank from scratch takes multiple weeks. I say your tank is still cycling, the red gills & deaths are a common result of adding fish to a new tank. Fish usually start to die in the 2-4 week period. Some lfs will test the water for free, some may charge a small amount.

My guess is you will need to perform multiple water changes over the next few weeks. Feed your fish only a small amount every 2nd day for a week or 2.

ps; How do you clean your filters? & do you use a gravel vacuum when doing water changes?

Frenchy

[Ianab]

I agree with Frenchy.

The tank is new and the filter is probably still cycling. So ammonia and nitrite can build up in the tank. That irritates the fishes gills and can kill them pretty quick. Frequent water changes can help control it untill the filters get established, so keep doing them. Cutting back on the feeding will reduce the amount of ammonia being released into the tank. You can buy a basic ammonia test to check this.

One of the Ammonia neutralisers might help, they dont remove ammonia, but convert it to less toxic ammonium which your filter can eventually process.

Dont touch your filter unless it blocks up, you need it to build up some gunge and bacteria so it works properly.

Cheers

Ian

[Kelsta]

Would the cycle have not sped up the cycling process?

What do we do now? Do we leave the fish in there and keep doing the water changes, or set up the old tank and ut them back or what?

How often do we do water changes - every day, every second day?

Can we save the sick ones? We have 1 sucker and 1 minnow this morning who are sick with red gills and looking real bad - can we do anything?

As for the others - HOW do you reduce ammonia? Is there a product or what?

[Kelsta]

Right, we'll do water changes every other day, and buy an ammonia neutraliser.

I've just added more cycle to the water too.

I hope that prevents any more fish from getting sick! Me and hubby are pretty traumatised at this point.

I just find it wierd that we did the 50% water change yesterday, which should have helped, but then straight away 2 more fish got sick?

Question: We used to use Aqua Plus water ager with our last tank, but now we have the "latest and greated" and it's called Prime. Trouble is, it's SO concentrated, and we can't really treat each bucket of water individually before we put it in the tank, so we've been addingthe whole entire dose to the first bucket of water, adn then just following with he rest of the tap water until the tank is full again. Is this OK? Couldthat have caused them problems?

Why are our 4 fantails OK? Are they hardier?

[Kelsta]

Sorry, I forgot: yes we use a gravel vacume for the water changes and we didn't clean the fileter at all this time, but we have washed the foam in the dirty water from the tank twice. I see that was the wrog thing to do.

[Ianab]

Keep doing water changes.

If you do a 50% water change then you 1/2 the level of ammonia in the tank. You can do this every day, it wont harm the fish. After a week or so the filters should have caught up and begun to process the ammonia.

Giving the fish some fresh water is the best treatment for them, if their gills aren't too badly damaged they can recover.

Setting up the old tank wont really help as it will have to cycle again if it's been empty

Cycle claims to speed up the process, but it still takes time for the bacteria to multiply in the filter. It's not a magic wand in a bottle.

You can buy Ammonia treatments from the pet shop. Again they dont magically make the ammonia vanish, but they convert it to Ammonium which isn't so toxic. It's not something that you need to use normally, but if you have a filter problem it can save your fish untill the filter comes right again.

When I change tanks around I allways set them up with an already cycled filter. Either bring the running filter from the old tank, or run the new filter in an existing tank for a few weeks. That way you have some working filtration from day one. You still need to take care building up the fish numbers, but it's the best way to jumpstart the cycle.

Ian

Why are our 4 fantails OK? Are they hardier?

Yup.. goldfish are pretty tough. They can probably survive a little ammonia in the water. Hillstream loaches need good clean water and plenty of oxygen, so a little ammonia really knocks them.

Cheers

Ian

[peanuts]

as the others have said - your fish tank is still what is called cycling, this is a process where your filter is establishing good baterica to help break down the fish waste and stop the ammonia build up.

in my opinion the prime, conditoner and other "chemicals" you are adding are not going to make the cycling go quicker.

ammonia build up happens as fish poo, and "goldfish" like to poo heaps, so I suggest feeding only every second day and feed a little amount. the day you don't feed do a water change at least a third of the tank. and you will probably need to do this for the next couple of weeks.

having some plants in there could also help - but it would need to be hardy plants as the goldfish like to eat them.

[Kelsta]

Thank you so much for your help

Gosh I feel really stupid - seems so obvious now.

The old tank is empty so that won't be any use. I guess we'll just keep doing a water cahge each day, and I'll go get some ammonia neutraliser today to use until the tank is properly cycled.

How long do you suggest we keep doing the water changes?

I'm going to buy the ammonia test this morning - is there anything else I should be testing? I'd like to get everything I need now. Thanks

[Ianab]

A water treatment like Prime may be needed, depends on how good your tap water is. NZ tap water tends to be pretty good and many people dont use the water treatments. But they should do no harm even if they aren't needed, and can save the day if the council has a problem with the water supply and turns up the chlorine dose one day.

If you get an ammonia test kit that will confirm if ammonia is actually the problem, and when the ammonia goes away you can go back to normal weekly water changes. Otherwise I would do them for a week or so, then keep a close eye on the fish after that.

You can actually keep fish healthy just by doing massive water changes and no filter, but thats like a lot of work, so we tend to run filters.

Cheers

Ian

[Caper]

Gosh I feel really stupid - seems so obvious now

Don't feel that way...it is all a learning process. If possible get the test kit, and keep up with the water changes. Keep us updated!

Caper

[Kelsta]

THANKS SO MUCH EVERYONE

Animates tested the water for me and the Nitrate and Nitrite levels were WAY too high. Ammonia was low, so not unsafe but there was some.

They gave me a pouch of Nitrazorb (or something) to put in the filter that will correct this, and they've said to keep doing twice weekly water changes and continue to add the Prime and Cycle with each change.

If anyone would like to put their 2 cents worth in as well, please do!

But I'm pleased we've found the source of the problem - now we can fix it. I guess we just added the fish too early. Lesson learned. I wish someone had told us that, but there you go, it's just something we learned the hard way. RIP Streak, Alfalfa, and the 3 nameless minnow

[Ianab]

Good to know, the water tests indicate that the tank is only part way cycled. The ammonia eating bacteria must have started doing their thing, but that makes Nitrite. Then another bunch of bacteria turn nitrite into nitrate. Once they get their act together there should be no measurable ammonia or nitrite left in the tank.

Then you just do normal water changes to get rid of the less toxic nitrate.

Your tank will come right with time, just keep up the extra water changes for a while.

Cheers

Ian

[Kelsta]

Thank you very much - I don't know where we would be without you guys!

I think sometimes the stores could be a little more informative when you're buying a new tank, so that you *start out* right, rather than have things go drastically wrong, lose your little scaly friends, and THEN they tell you what ya need to know. I think hubby is permanently traumatised now and is saying no more fish - ever. And it was his idea in the first place!

But I guess it's up to the fish keeper to do their homework aye.

Well, Thanks again

[jn]

It wouldn't be hard for every pet store to have an info sheet,, so even if the shopkeeper is clueles.. they can ask if you've ever had fish before, and if you say no they can hand you an info sheet so yuo know what to look out for.. it's a wonderful concept called 'customer service' that seems to be seriously lacking....and who knows, after handing the sheet out enough times maybe some of the less clued in shop-assistants would actually ready it and learn something new!

[Kelsta]

Yep, jn a handout is a great idea and I think Animates has them but that's not where we got our tank.

But I am really greatful to Animates for testing my water for free, and putting us on the right track towards healing our tank. They've been really helpful

[herefishiefishie]

Whenever we had a new customer, someone we didn't know etc. When buying fish we asked what the fish were going into, with... If it was for a new tank, we would only sell a couple, we had a wall chart with the cycle on it. Got the customer in each week for the next 4 weeks for free water tests. That way week 2 & 3 they might buy plants, ornaments etc. week 4 buy a couple more fish, week 5 if still fine, buy what they like....

That way too we can spoon feed, littles bits of info each week. End up with a happy, regular customer who recommends you to others. 8)

Frenchy

[jn]

Well Frenchy, sounds like we need you back here in NZ then?!

Oh.. and BTW.. Es-tu vraiment Francais?

[Kelsta]

Hi Ian, I wanted to ask you about the use of Prime, which you suggested before. Please bear with me as I'm really confused.... :oops:

We already have some, and have been using it to treat the new water when we do water changes, but now I'm reading the instructions again and I think we may have been under-dosing...?

Do you know whether the Prime STAYS in the water, and therefore you only treat the NEW water each change, or are you supposed to treat the WHOLE TANK VOLUME each time??? We can't figure it out.

Last night, after reading on the bottle that you can "use up to 5 times the normal dose in a Nitrite emergency", we put in twice the normal dose, but we're still unsure how to treat under normal circumstances and the store doesn't seem to know!?

It says on the bottle it's better to add it to the new water first, but then it goes on to say "if adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume". Does that mean you're supposed to dose the whole tank volume with each water change?

We don't want to over dose in case it harms the fish, but perhaps we've been too cautious, and have been under dosing, which may have contributed to our half-cycled tank having such high Nitrite/Nitrate.

We have ONLY been treating the NEW water each time, assuming that the existing tank water still has the Prime in it. Is this right???

THANKS!!