Ca Reactor vs Two Part vs Kalkwasser

[Jettin]

Ok another topic of interest.

The tank now has a few frags and ill be starting to dose with kalkwasser very shortly to try and keep up with demands of kH and Ca and most probably Mg.

Currently

Tank volume - 340L most likely sps dominant with some other softies.

pH - 8.1

kH - 7.5

Ca - 280

Mg - Havent tested.

Im still a student so therefore im a lazy ass and am looking for some sort of system which will take the least amount of time possible and be cost effective in the long term.

Ive heard that a Calcium Reactor will supply demands of kH, Ca and Mg and keep them consistent? Ive also read that a reactor may not be worth it for a small tank? I dont mind forking out for a Reactor if its going to be worth it, but what else is involved?

Oppinions / suggestions?

Would like to hear about how peeps are keeping up with their requirements, especially those running reactors.

Jeff

[lduncan]

If you can keep up with demand using kalk, then that's a good way.

However if you find you don't have enough evaporation to supply cal / alk by kalk, then I would recommend a two part dosing system over a calcium reactor.

My rational for this is in my post halfway down this page:

http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/4-vt16 ... c&start=45

Layton

[Drifty]

i manually dose cal/alk powder 2 times a week, mag powder 1 time per week. I know how much my tank uses so put the same amount in each time. Takes me maybe 10 mins at the most a week.

I am looking at getting a cal reactor for my new tank but at this stage will stick with the powder as I dont want to rely on too much electrical equipment

[Jettin]

lduncan, a very good argument on the two part system.

It seems to be much less complicated than the reactor, which is definately a good thing.

If i dosed two part, is it possible to drip these into the sump via gravity, and adjust the drip rate accordingly to testing?

thanks guys

[wasp]

Yes you can drip via gravity, however tubes will clog a bit and drip rate will vary. This matters because the important thing is you have to get the right amount of alk in relative to calcium, one cannot vary against the other, so dripping from a bulk container is not going to work very well if you want it to be constant.

So if you want to drip it, what I would recommend anyway, is to have 2 drip containers, one for alk and one for calcium. Tip enough alkalinity mix into one that will do the tank for say, 4 days, and allow it to drip in over a few hours. 2 days later, tip the measured amount of calcium for 4 days, into the other container and allow that to drip in over a few hours.

BTW the 4 days is not important, some people only do it weekly, or you could do it daily if you want & can be bothered hassling around with it. If you want really steady levels you need a dosing pump as someone suggested, however as stated this is quite a cost.

Long time ago I used to dose 2 part, well in my case 3 part, manually as you are considering, I did it daily worked fine but was an ongoing hassle. Eventually I got a three way dosing pump (alk, ca,mg) and this made life a lot easier, although I still had to make mixes of it every so often which does eventually become a pain.

[lduncan]

lduncan, a very good argument on the two part system.

It seems to be much less complicated than the reactor, which is definately a good thing.

If i dosed two part, is it possible to drip these into the sump via gravity, and adjust the drip rate accordingly to testing?

thanks guys

The main problem with gravity drip, is that as the liquid level in the container drops, the head height decreases and the drip rate decreases.

The best thing to do, would be take the money you were going to spend on a reactor CO2 bottle and regulator etc, and get a couple of dosing pumps instead and automate it. (More than likely you'll have a fair amount of money left over too) On a small tank you can premix enough of the solutions to last for years, without remixing.

Layton

[wasp]

Not nessecary to spend heaps of money. When I did it manually, my whole set up costs where just a few dollars.

A person only needs to spend the money if they don't want the ongoing hassle.

Not sure about mixing enough in one hit to last several years, you would need HUGE storage tanks for it. When I was doing it I used 3 x 5 litre containers for the 3 parts, to dose an approx 800 litre set up, I seemed to be mixing something every few weeks. Admittedly I had massive growth & use of calcium as I was selling stuff, but the amount of room needed would have been a factor if I wanted to store several years worth.

[Jettin]

Yes you can drip via gravity, however tubes will clog a bit and drip rate will vary.

So if you want to drip it, what I would recommend anyway, is to have 2 drip containers, one for alk and one for calcium. Tip enough alkalinity mix into one that will do the tank for say, 4 days, and allow it to drip in over a few hours. 2 days later, tip the measured amount of calcium for 4 days, into the other container and allow that to drip in over a few hours.

Yeah i thought that it would clog, cleaning the tubes with hot water every couple of weeks is fine for me though, shouldnt take long at all.

Is there a reason for doing the calc drip 2 days after the alk? Is this so that the system does not get a shock from the increase in both parts or because they should not be dripped at the same time?

And you say over a few hours - i was just thinking of leaving it on the drip 24/7.

The main problem with gravity drip, is that as the liquid level in the container drops, the head height decreases and the drip rate decreases.

Bugger didnt think of that one.... Im sure that if i had the containers high enough and the dripper was at the bottom of the container there shouldnt be too much variance in drip rate.

Jeff

[wasp]

The reason I suggested doing the 2 at different times is simply to reduce precipitation, which can occur if you drip both at once. It may not, but it may.

As to dripping 24/7, you can do that, but I just suggested dripping over a few hours as that is how long it might take to drip in the measured amount. If you are going to drip it 24/7, it will be nearly impossible to get the right amount in as drip rate will vary from one day to the next.

But anyway, enough talk . Best way is to get started & you will soon figure it out.

[Jettin]

Ok,

So ive just started to get my levels up and ive just decided to go with two part initially.

kH - 7.7 going to bump it to apprx 9

Cal - 350 bumping that to 450

Mag - 1350 just bumped this one up

Does anyone have a suggestion for drip rates? Im going to be dripping Cal Chloride and Baking soda from Randys recipe.

[wasp]

No cos every tank uses it at a different rate, depending on what you have growing that needs it, plus how much precipitation.

All you do is test your water, dose for a few days, then test again. If levels have risen, slow the drip rate. If levels have fallen, increase the drip rate. Fiddle until you have it about right & thereafter test weekly.

Or if you are a mathematics boffin you test the water, don't dose anything for a few days and test again, see how much got used, then use one of those calculator thingies to calculate what you should be dosing.

The main thing is if using Randys recipe to dose equal amounts ca and kh. But if you do get a little out of whack which will happen if you are using gravity, no worries, just increase or decrease one of them slightly to get back in line.

If you want a calculator thingie, here is one

http://jdieck1.home.comcast.net/chemcalc.html

[lduncan]

Yeah, you can use the new version calculator here:

http://reef.diesyst.com/

You can work out exactly how much to dose. No need to guess like you have to with reactors.

[lduncan]

Cal - 350 bumping that to 450

Personally I wouldn't go that high with calcium. Anything around 400 is fine.

Calcium doesn't generally become limiting until it's under 350. Alkalinity is more important.

The higher you have calcium, the harder it is to keep alkalinity levels up. There's no real advantage in having it that high.

Layton

[chimera]

No need to guess like you have to with reactors.

Yeah, like measuring the effluent to be around 6.7 ph is guess work. My CR keeps my calcium completely stable at 400. Only need to dose after water changes.

[puttputt]

Laytons always been anti calcium reactors, but there are good sound arguments for both systems, and alot of very nice tanks run reactors (most), so don't rely solely on some of these posts IMHO.

[lduncan]

Yeah, like measuring the effluent to be around 6.7 ph is guess work. My CR keeps my calcium completely stable at 400. Only need to dose after water changes.

What's pH got to do with calcium and alkalinity levels?

What pH and drip rate do you set your reactor to to add 0.5dkH of alkalinity per day?

It's just guess work. Not that it's not possible to work it out. It's just too convoluted to work out, so tuning a reactor ends up being just an exercise in trial and error (guessing).

Laytons always been anti calcium reactors, but there are good sound arguments for both systems, and alot of very nice tanks run reactors (most), so don't rely solely on some of these posts IMHO.

Anti calcium reactors? We'll I've spelled out why I'd personally would never use one, with real reasons. The fact that a lot of very nice tanks run reactors, isn't that relevant. If that's seen as some sort of reason for running a reactor, what would you say If I said that there are some disgusting tanks using calcium reactors too?

Personally I make my decisions looking at specifics of how these methods and systems work, I don't base it on who uses them, or what their tank looks like.

Layton

[puttputt]

I make decisions on what works.

Taking note and researching what sucessful tanks use seems to me to be highly relevant layton.

Other people (not layton no point) look at some of the tanks on this thread, look at the equip and the decide whether the "laytons real reasons" are real.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1162082

Sorry mods if I can't post this link, wasn't sure???

Whats obvious again Layton is that anyone who doesn't agree must be wrong, hasn't researched correctly and is just copying other people.

[lduncan]

I make decisions on what works.

Well all these methods "work". So the question is how do you choose one over the other?

Taking note and researching what sucessful tanks use seems to me to be highly relevant layton.

... then, by that same logic, taking note of what unsuccessful tanks use must be highly relevant to you too. No doubt there are some unsuccessful tanks using calcium reactors. Which kind of negates that whole rational. So again the question is how do you pick one over the other?

Other people (not layton no point) look at some of the tanks on this thread, look at the equip and the decide whether the "laytons real reasons" are real.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1162082

So... do you want me to post some example of tanks which use two part? I don't see what the relevance is really. The reasons i've outlined stand on their own merits. A picture of a tank neither supports or invalidates them.

Whats obvious again Layton is that anyone who doesn't agree must be wrong, hasn't researched correctly and is just copying other people.

No, i'm just highlighting why using a tank which happens to use a particular method, is not particularly relevant in making a rational decision.

Coming up with some rational reasons to use a reactor over two part might be more useful than just pointing out which tanks use CR and which use 2 part.

Layton

[puttputt]

Coming up with some rational reasons to use a reactor over two part might be more useful than just pointing out which tanks use CR and which use 2 part.

its been done before Layton, and you will rubbish them again.......

[lduncan]

If by "rubbish" you mean question them when people's experience contradict them, then probably.

There are valid reasons why someone might choose a reactor over two part.

But they don't seem to have anything to do with what's most efficient, or simple. But then people have different priorities and criteria in mind when choosing how to do something.

Layton

[cookie extreme]

But they don't seem to have anything to do with what's most efficient, or simple. But then people have different priorities and criteria in mind when choosing how to do something.

or how succesful they want to be in growing a reef and heaps of frags!

can't wait til your corals grow out of the tank again puttputt!! still waiting for layton to show us some growth pictures or any pictures really of his great tank. well yeah still waiting (been over two years now at least :roll: ) must be a real bummer puttputt throwing those corals out when you moved because they just grew everywhere and you just had way to many frags. well i put it down to you running this crappy thing, which is just useless and hard to work. what was it called again? oh yeah i have got one too - a calcium reactor. few thousand frags over the last couple years now and the damn thing is still working. :evil:

[lduncan]

well i put it down to you running this crappy thing, which is just useless ...

No one has said either of those two things.

No one has said calcium reactors don't work.

No one has said you can't grow corals with calcium reactors.

So I'm struggling to see the point to your post? Are you trying to imply that you can't be as successful using two part?

Layton

[Sharkey]

I haven't posted on this site for a long time although I do from time to time come back and read, unfortunately it's usually this sort of thing and then I think why did I bother. I like healthy debate but Layton you just look to be trying to stir thing's up with pointless comments. Sometimes it pays to listen there are other points of view and yours isn't always right believe it or not. Yes both systems work we all know what works and is best for one system is not the be all and end all for all systems. But if we are going to play these games please back up what you say.

We are all still waiting for your amazing computer :roll:

Still waiting for photos of your amazing tank :roll:

Still waiting for some positive input :roll:

We are few we should be constructively working together. Trading frags sharing information and experience's.

Looking forward to one of you message's with quotes that you can twist and bend pick apart and put your own spin on good work.

High five it's nice.

[lduncan]

I've already backed up my statements. That's more than many people do. Then you get people taking that as me just making "pointless comments". Or Cookie who come out with a post like that in reply. How is that constructive?

I'm just trying to put some logic into the discussion, that's all.

Layton

[wasp]

We are few we should be constructively working together. Trading frags sharing information and experience's.

Well said.

In fact, 99% of us are already doing exactly that.

The pedantic arguing and "my way is the only right way" mentality is fortunately only confined to the 1%, although it might not seem like that sometimes.