jolliolli Posted June 24, 2007 Report Share Posted June 24, 2007 well, i'm still trying to find the problem in my community tank and today i have a few more symptoms. On top of the following symptoms Golden Barbs scratching Occasional ruby barbs and gouramis scratching my golden balloon ram has developed the following symptoms yesterday he seemed to stay in the corner of the tank and his breathing was more rapid. He still comes out for food but spends most of his time in the corner. This morning i noticed some red streaks on one of his pectoral fins and his gills may be possibly inflammed but it is hard to tell with his pale body his gills have always looked quite pink. In the past i have treated for white spot (which i'm sure its not as there were never any white spots evident) i also had the sudden death of two mollies, i don't know the age of them as they were part of a different tank setup when i got them, they were quarantined in another tank for a couple of weeks and exhibited no signs of illness. when two of the died within a week of each other they did not exhibit any illness either. So any ideas as to what this could be, a couple of months ago i treated with prazi to be on the safe side but now with the introduction of red streaks i'm wondering if these could be symptoms of bacterial infection? Any advice as to a diagnosis and treatment would be appreciated i've been trying to nail this problem for a while and REALLY don't want to lose the balloon ram as he has a ton of personality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolliolli Posted June 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2007 Also i've heard formalin being used as a 'cure-all' for tanks has anyone had any experience using this, i'm wary of it as i've heard it could kill the fish, do you treat the fish and tank or just the tank? My tank parameters are 300L, planted, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels are all fine. pH stable at 7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelj Posted June 24, 2007 Report Share Posted June 24, 2007 i would suggest a full treatment of furan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolliolli Posted June 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2007 went and saw john at organism and he recommended melafix as its less harmful on the plants than furan-2 (I didnt know furan-2 could cause your plants to melt ). So i'll see how that goes and if there is any improvement. i;m also going to add an additional external filter to the tank to improve water flow (aqua via 700 i think) as i don't think the internal juwel filter does a crash hot job. Will see what the outcome is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jn Posted June 24, 2007 Report Share Posted June 24, 2007 Hey there I just finished a treatment of 'Wunder Tonic" on my tank. I think my fish had gill flukes BUT it has other ingredients which may be anti-bacterial. It says it's good for fin rot, tail rot, white spot and other fungal diseases but if you look up the ingrediants individually you can see they're used for a very broad range of things. It has methylene blue, malachite green, acriflavin and quinine. Cost me $6 from animates. I didn't use the full strength dose, added it until they just started to look stressed about 1 drop per 4L I think. Anyway... my fish now seem fine and my plants all pulled though as well. It also didn't kill my filter bacteria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolliolli Posted June 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2007 thanks for the info, i've dosed with melafix tonight and will treat for the next seven days and see how i go. I bought some acriflavin as well but i'm not sure how wise i would be to add it at the same timeas the melafix. Failing this working, i'll look at maybe furan-2 or wundertonic. it would be nice if i could definitively determine what the problem is. None of the fish look particularly stressed but the appearance of those symptoms is enough to make me slightly anxious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jn Posted June 24, 2007 Report Share Posted June 24, 2007 I used furan once one some pond fish who looked like they had bacterial infections (this was my immersion in the art of fish care and was only partially successful!!) I knew nothing about cycling so lost some fish due to poor water conditions (were being treated in plastic bins) but one had an ulcer and another had red streak and this did clear up. My only reservation was that on the pacakge it says its carginogenic! So I didn't like handling it and wore gloves etc. Anyway.. if you decide to go with Furan-2, Critter Kingdom on Blenheim rd. was selling them in 'bulk' not that long ago (ie: they'll sell you individual pills, so if you need more or less than a packet check them out. I think it works out cheaper too!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelj Posted June 24, 2007 Report Share Posted June 24, 2007 melafix can only do so much. i generally only use it for newly transfered fish etc. When i see symptoms of bacterial infections and fish death more agressive treatments are a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted June 24, 2007 Report Share Posted June 24, 2007 Formaldehyde (formalin solution) is good for gill and skin flukes but has some other bad effects like causing temporary sterility and killing plants. Your fish may have skin flukes. Not easy to get but quinine or mepacrine will cure that without killing plants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted June 24, 2007 Report Share Posted June 24, 2007 Woner tonic might be the way to go as I think it contains meth blue, acraflavine, malachite green and quinine and between them they should sort it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herefishiefishie Posted June 24, 2007 Report Share Posted June 24, 2007 I remember when lfs here went through the melafix for everything phase. Yep it's good for scratches etc. Even I used it a fair bit. Haven't used in 2 years lol. But for treatment of flukes? That isn't on the bottle. You need to get something that treats gill flukes. If you can get something that treats both gill & skin flukes be better. When you have symptoms that lead to a particular problem, you use the medicine that matches. The way I see it, they aren't isn't 100% sure what to treat for. Especially when he gives you a medicine that is "safe" on fish. Bizarre. Frenchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolliolli Posted June 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2007 problem is im still not sure what the problem is.. i have treated with prazi in the past which i would have thought would have fixed gill flukes if it was that but didn't see any change in the scratching. I have to say the balloon ram looks happier today, he's out swimming around the front and i think (though i could be imagining) that his inflamed nostrils look a little better. i did a 40% water change treated with melafix and added extra filtration which has improved the water quality (previously i seemed to have a lot of fine particulate plant matter floating which the internal filter system didn't seem to handle well). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolliolli Posted June 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2007 btw would gill and skin flukes be visible to the naked eye? I can't see anything on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolliolli Posted June 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 Update : I've been adding melafix the last couple of days things but haven't noticed an improvement in the balloon ram's fins, in fact the redness/blood in the fins has now extended to the base of the anal fins and now is present on both pectoral fins whereas previously it was only one fin. Also the tail fin appears a little raggedy. I think tomorrow i will dose with furan as the melafix doesn't seem to be helping. Below are some photos if anyone can identify what they think might be the problem before i go down the furan-2 route that would be helpful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herefishiefishie Posted June 27, 2007 Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 hmmmm, The red patches with the scratching is leading me to believe that your fish may have both bacterial & parasitic infection. At least, that is a sign of skin flukes. Treat for that as soon as possible. It has been 3 days since Alan answered your question. When you used prazi last time, how many times & often did you treat? Frenchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolliolli Posted June 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 Hi there, Am buying furan-2 today and dosing this morning seeing as the melafix hasn't worked, from what i've read it can be used safely with anti-parasitic medication? When i dosed with prazi i didn't really have any symptoms in the tank apart from scratching. It was a couple of months ago and from memory i dosed once, and then retreated 5 days later. So i would be ok adding the furan-2 and the prazi at the same time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herefishiefishie Posted June 27, 2007 Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 I probably wouldn't use at the same time. Using furan now after prazi, a month ago will be fine. 2 treatments 5 days apart isn't the proper way to use prazi either. Therefore chances are you never killed all the flukes. Frenchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolliolli Posted June 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 The label on the back of the bottle says : a single treatment lasting 5-7 days is normally sufficient, retreat as necessary but no more than once very 3-5 days. Reading this the first time i took it to mean treat once and then treat again in 3-5 days, is this incorrect? Reading it again i see it could mean to treat with 1 tsp/20Gallons for 5-7 days. Is this how it should be treated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolliolli Posted June 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 well i dosed with furan-2 today came home toight and he's looking worse. Now appears to have trouble swimming, he sits on the bottom and is unable to swim straight and either lands head down or head up in a bunch of grass most of the time. 2 treatments 5 days apart isn't the proper way to use prazi either. What is the correct way, from looking on the net ppl seem to suggest that a single treatment is correct and then redosing in 3-5 days. Also is it safe to use prazi and furan-2 together or should i wait until the furan-2 treatment is finished? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herefishiefishie Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 The trouble with treatment, gill flukes for example. The eggs can take 1 to 21 days to hatch. If I was to quote Gerald Bassleer, from his fish disease book. To treat with prazi, 250mg/100lt {for 3 days} Then to repeat the treatment over a period of 3 weeks to kill off all the larvae. It is different to what medicine bottles state too, but I prefer to take the word of Doctor who specialised in fish diseases & spent 25 years in the international ornamental fish trade. Especially when you read up on the life cycle of the gill flukes. I don't know what is in furan. But Praziquantel should never be used with Formalin or FMC. Hope it's not to late & your fish pull through. You could add a little salt 1-3 grams/lt for 3-5 days. Will help heal the red streaks & help control the gills. Frenchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
me love fishy Posted June 29, 2007 Report Share Posted June 29, 2007 how is your fish Jollillolli? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolliolli Posted June 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2007 well last night was a very stressful night, got home after a stressful day at work to find the little fella head down in the grasses and having equilibrium issues. After reading the back of the furan pack it mentioned it could be used with antiparasitic medications so i medicated with prazi. AIIIEEEE after 10minutes of adding the prazi my ram's equilibrium issues became a lot worse, he swum crazily around the tank and ended up upside-down and had trouble righting himself. I quickly removed him to a small tank of freshwater and he seemed to recover after around 10 minutes. During this time all other fish in the tank were fine except for one dwarf gourami who appeared to be not moving much (now though i think he was just being gouramish and hanging out at the top of the tank like he usually does). So.. unsure as to whether it was the prazi or just a worsening of whatever disease the ram has i slowly added medicated water to his new tank and he seemed fine. After around an hour i decided to see if he would tolerate the water again, again he had balance issues and i removed immediately. This morning he is in his own tank sitting at the bottom and doesn't seem to have recovered very well. Seeing as he's one of my favourites it was quite distressing and i'm hoping when i get home tonight from work he's still ok but i'm not holding out hope for a long term recovery. To top it off i'm still not really sure as to what the problem is and last night saw the ruby barbs scratching Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolliolli Posted June 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2007 Gutted Got home tonight and didn't make it. All other fish are ok. I'd really like to try and determine what he died of and i've heard of ppl doing skin and gill scrapes and analysing under a microscope. Has anyone had experience doing this and directions on how to do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herefishiefishie Posted June 29, 2007 Report Share Posted June 29, 2007 Remove the gill cover with a pair of scissors. Have a look at the gills. What colour are they, {pink, red} any white patches, any watery appearance. Skin & Gill flukes are O.3-O.5mm in size. They differ in look. You can even do a scale scrap & have a look there too if you have a microscope. Try & get hold of a good text book that has disease pictures, therefore easy to compare & see if the gills are healthy, riddled with flukes etc. I think you left the flukes to long on your fish. As you have lost others, I would do a water change on your tank & keep treating with prazi. I looked up Furan-2 too, Furan-2 * Anti-bacterial fish medication for treating bacterial diseases * Pharmaceutical grade active ingredients for maximum efficacy * For freshwater and saltwater aquariums Your fish have flukes. That isn't bacterial. Treat with prazi, or with what Alan stated. If you explained what you said your fish were doing to the lfs....why did they sell you melafix, then furan? Oh well. Frenchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim r Posted June 29, 2007 Report Share Posted June 29, 2007 I know it is too late for your ram but according to my fish disease book "flubendazol & acetone or dmso,flubenol 5%" is a solvent used for gill, skin and intestinal worms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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