PhoenixMoor Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 Hi All, Not sure if this is the correct forum for this question, but I think it's probably a newbie question :lol: Does anyone know which trait is dominant when crossing 2 goldfish (moor & celestial), The telescope eye or celestial eye ? I'm assuming the telescope, is that correct ? Or would some of them revert ? Thanks in advance !!!! Rachel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keri Anne Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 I think it may also depend on if the trait is caused by a single gene or a combination of genes acting on each other. I know nothing on goldfish genes and can therefore only suggest doing a test cross and keeping good notes on your results. (Make sure to keep the F1 generation apart from the P fish. This will make back-crossing easy. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilson Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 i would even cross the f1 Generation ie have 2 p Generation and have the offspring (f1) breed so no inbreeding happens--- hope you understand all that ill see if i can find the goldfish genotypes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilson Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 its not what you are doing but it may help i found it a little confusing but im olny ncea level 2 bio now so... http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/86/1/161.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishboi Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 why would u want to do that? short answer is dont waste ur time cuz ur most likely to get 100% nymphs. although the same species these two varieties are completely different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Discusguru Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 totally agree with fishboi on that. You will get alot of deform fish. ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixMoor Posted February 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 Thanks guys.... Fishboi, you're right...Most will be nymphs (kinda' the point ! ). My dream fish would be a black moor colour, with the eyes, but the rest a phoenix egg fish. We can't import phoenix egg fish so I'll start from the start. The colour in blackmoors is recessive, so are the telescope eyes and the absence of a dorsal fin. I needed a cross without a dorsal fin, but where the probability of the F2 generation keeping the eyes was existant. Sooo... Celestial. Now I realise that the gold is dominant and more than likely all the F1 generation would be gold telescopes. However, using the mother with the F1s to produce the second generation (Using the maternal gene dominance theory...) there could be a 25% chance of one mutation on the journey - You see where I'm going here.... Let's just say my mind has a little too much to do, and dog breeding takes too much land :lol: :lol: :lol: If someone has the genotypes for all the characteristics, I'd love them. So far I've only got studies involving fin characteristics, telescope vs normal eyes and colour... Rachel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixMoor Posted February 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 BTW, Thanks Wilson. That genetics paper was one of the first ones I read on the subject It has a very good explanation of the recessive telescope eye gene and a few others. The thing I love about this species is the amount of variant alleles in each gene and the effect on the others. Anyway, I think I will be taking copius notes ! Never know who might need this stuff :lol: Rachel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharn Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 ive just skimmed this topic so excuse me if this has already been answered- what are you planning to do with all the undesirables along the way? i know you are going to go ahead if you want to regardless of my comment but i would like to say is it worth hundreds (potentially thousands) of fish being killed to make one new looking fish? (i know they already exist, we just cant get them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishboi Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 well sounds like u've made ur mind up and good for u for wanting to give it a go. have u ever breed goldfish? u do realize it would take around 10 years before a some what stabled line if u manage it. and before u start, contact some breeders for the look out of egg fish with telescope eyes as u get them just by breeding celestials but are kulled as nymphs cuz they're "undesirable". so if u can get hold of some of those it may cut down a couple of years of breeding. with over 300 varieties of goldfish developed only 20 odd are popular enough for comical sale so u will need to do this purely for urself so ur not disappointed when ur strain is not recognised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishboi Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 ive just skimmed this topic so excuse me if this has already been answered- what are you planning to do with all the undesirables along the way? i know you are going to go ahead if you want to regardless of my comment but i would like to say is it worth hundreds (potentially thousands) of fish being killed to make one new looking fish? (i know they already exist, we just cant get them). sounds mean but goldfish breeders are used to kulling fish, i sometimes kull thousands in one season alone . sounds like a lot of fish but keeping in mind a female lays 500-1000 eggs in one spawning and spawns up to 4 times per season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixMoor Posted February 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 Thanks Fishboi ! (I often read your goldfish related posts Actually I have been pestering breeders for sometime now :lol: I've been asking for excessively long tails and with no dorsal or Albino moors (since Albinism is the only recessive to black....) But no luck yet. I'm always checking out the nymphs though ! I have had breeding goldfish before (crossed my moors with comets in Australia.....) Seems the culling question is everywhere. As I'm looking for the mutants, I would prefer to only cull the ones with life threatning faults and sell off (or give away) the nymphs (or proper style ones) cheap. Realistically, this would only start once I had the right parents (mother must be a moor- father a celestial) and the right amount of room in tanks to raise them. And to be honest, I would never dream of anyone else thinking it should be recognised. Look at the blue phoenix egg fish. It is incredible, but they are fighting to keep it in existance ! http://www.goldfishsociety.org/optimized/fopt8.jpg (probably not the best pic there...) I'd expect it would be at least 10 years due to recessive genes everywhere... Rachel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharn Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 fishboi- im not anti-culling the undesirables for general breeding, im actually all for it as it is bettering the species/variation (i wont even let my discus breed due to a few small faults most would over look) but making a 'new' fish up would mean thousands would die because you are looking for a certain mutation which i would imagine may be a bit harder to find than 'perfection'? i dunno *shrugs* i have nothing other than opinion to offer so i shall shut my pie hole cause im not helping pheonix :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixMoor Posted February 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 Hey Sharn, I for one am always glad to hear other sides ! That's actually something I've thought about very carefully. And if I am lucky enough to actually breed some, it will be carefully controlled, as will be the selling of the nymphs (or perfects as the case may be !). I see a lot of nymphs being sold to pet stores without the breeders saying a word about advise of care... I do see both sides and it's something to consider. :)Rachel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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