jetskisteve Posted December 2, 2006 Report Share Posted December 2, 2006 well said Fay. too late tho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fay Posted December 2, 2006 Report Share Posted December 2, 2006 So where is it all going to end poor live stock!! We need to increase the market more tanks more tanks :lol: I have noticed there is a lot of people coming into salt water :bounce: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossco Posted December 2, 2006 Report Share Posted December 2, 2006 Someone like one of the 'retailers' / 'wholesalers' could probably comment more accurately but just by watching what shifts from the few marine tanks in Hamilton it seems there a lot more reefers out there than the few that frequent this notorious site! So do our deals make a huge difference? Importing is probably a lot like marine tanks - looks pretty easy until you start to try to do it yourself! Also a bit like Fay I buy from a variety of sources - they all have their pros/cons but all add their own colour and personalities to our tanks! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatix Posted December 2, 2006 Report Share Posted December 2, 2006 The problem I can see here is that you have another importer of corals that has started up and from what I can gather Jansen and Hollywoods won't buy off him for what ever reason. So he has to sell it some where!! put a deal on the table with him that he doesn't sell live stock private and I am sure the problem for the shop would go away if both stay true to their word. I was buying from all the marin suppliers, have tried and would love to make a deal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fay Posted December 2, 2006 Report Share Posted December 2, 2006 I was buying from all the marin suppliers, have tried and would love to make a deal There you go then deal time :lol: I have the answer Jansens by off one supplier and reopen the marine departments in their other stores and Hollywood by off the other supplier and no supliers sell live stock to public see it's simple :lol: well said Fay. too late tho Why Steve are you opening a retail store have you bought petplant? is there something I don't know about :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted December 3, 2006 Report Share Posted December 3, 2006 As far as I'm concerned I don't have any responsibility to pay more at a pet shop if I'm not getting service or convenience to make it worth the extra money. It's a company, not a charity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted December 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2006 The first rule of Capitalism is that everyone works to optimise their own position, some will have short term views and some long. It is undeniable that capitalism tends to drive prices lower and forces people to be more efficient, sometimes this change is too much and a business cannot become efficient enough to make the profits that the owner needs. Of course the economics of marine trade in Auckland is distorted, there are only two main retail outlets..... its entirely possible that cartell pricing or buying could occur in such a small economic system. How could the shops increase effiency vs a internet based resellor.... easy they start importing themselves so they can get there stock at the SAME COST BASE as the wholesaler... to hard easy they do a joint venture deal with the wholesaler so they dont have to import and the wholesaler does not have to start a retail outlet.... or we could see outright open price based warfare...... such as we see between hill and stewart, bond and bond etc etc..... remember the time when you used to have a familly business selling TV's and fridges just down the road...... Reef has said for a long time that its a hard business, time consuming and you may end up becoming a fish geek..... being a free society maybe others WANT to enter such a low margin business opportunity because they seek the same non financial gratification that he does....... I do understand the concept that a retail shop is in the best interest of the newbie by helping select the best products etc etc, in reality I cannot hand on heart believe that this is the case.... I see crap little skimmers sold to newbies with promises of performance they can never deliver. I also see newbies that cannot afford to enter the hobby decide to start with crap equipment... hell this is trying to keep an animal alive, the road is littered with aquaculture venutres where millions was invested and they could not cut it!!!! I do not believe that the model that works for fresh water works for marines, i believe that marines need more personal help and assistance, i believe this logically should come from clubs rather then retail shops.... whay is it then that people are so non interested in turning up to a club meeting to discuss marines, but flock to a discount frag swap at a wholesalers house???? Do wholesaler really offer the assistance and advice that a shop cannot, how do they manage to do this in a cost effective manner if a shop cannot...... or are we just so price focused we want that cheap frag! Trademe is changing the way many NZ importers do business its up to the individual tank owners to decide who to support.... As to blaming this forum bah ahahahahahahahahah, the people here have always looked for a bargin, hell the wholesalers even used to seek them, I used to recieve a monthly newsletter from an importer for ages! what i truely find so interesting is how high the prices obtained on trademe have been lately....... I suspect that once the market gets a bit more saturated then people will stop bidding aginst each other, knowing that the wholesaller has many more fish on there list and in fact the wholesaler would rather sell direct via email or a website.... enough rambling - i did not start this thread to get anyone banned again - lets keep it that way..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted December 3, 2006 Report Share Posted December 3, 2006 Also a lot of the extra costs of buy retail would IMO be eliminiated by store with huge stocks of equipment and livestock. If I'm pretty much garaunteed to get any bit I want when I go there, I will. But 90% of stores have all the same basics and that's about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puttputt Posted December 3, 2006 Report Share Posted December 3, 2006 whay is it then that people are so non interested in turning up to a club meeting to discuss marines Because the importers have worked so hard, and still are, at dividing the hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted December 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2006 ira - have you personally ever purchased internet mail order? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted December 3, 2006 Report Share Posted December 3, 2006 Yeah, I have. Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 I do not believe that the model that works for fresh water works for marines, i believe that marines need more personal help and assistance, i believe this logically should come from clubs rather then retail shops.... whay is it then that people are so non interested in turning up to a club meeting to discuss marines, but flock to a discount frag swap at a wholesalers house???? Do wholesaler really offer the assistance and advice that a shop cannot, how do they manage to do this in a cost effective manner if a shop cannot...... or are we just so price focused we want that cheap frag! My personal experience is that I get far better advice and assistance from wholesalers who are only interested in marines than LFS that hire low cost staff that need to know about not only marine fish, but also fresh water, cats, dogs, birds, etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted December 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 I cam remember having this same thread conversation with pies about 24 months ago..... what has not changed still two major marine retails shops in AKL this thread still has an (in the businees) vs hobbiest theme to it.... lots of people thiunk they know what is best for everyone else..... there is still a lot of importer vs retailer politics in akl you can still get a bargin if you work discreetly via email etc so what has changed..... The internet has become an even more dominent force in the retail and distribution of product such as skimmers/calc reactors etc etc Individual hobbiests seem more willing to import their own kit now. There is a second AKL based importer and prices do seem to be a little lower then they used to be. Trademe has allowed the hobbiest a better vehicle to sell spare kit etc. There seems to be more not less people now entering marines, lower prices have not translated into less people in the hobby in fact the basic rules of economics mean this can never happen, less people = higher prices through decreased effeciency.... I reckon that i will be having this conversation again in 24 months and by then there will be open sales of marine fish on the web, prob not all by trademe as the fees kill the deal , but the wholesalers will continue to refine their businesses in their personal self interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 The discussion will continue as long as people wish to keep having it. Shops have to charge more than wholesale that is how they live. I don't work for nothing either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 Well I have been reading along this thread and I still support Jansens and Hollywood with the live stock and fish (remember big boy $350) the truth is yes I like to be able to go into a shop and browse for fish and corals but my tanks are at their limits just waiting on an Anemone I swapped with Pies then I think that’s about all I can fit for now I was going to add a sixline wrasse but my nitrates say I can't But I am dammed if I will spend $1000 it cost me one year to replace the MH bulbs when I can get them a lot cheaper if I couldn't get them in NZ cheaper than $1000 I would source from overseas anyway. And how much would an AP 850 Deltec Skimmer cost in the shops? Get my point Fay - So the point it you will mail order anything you can get as long as its cheaper, but will pay retail for things like live stock because you can't get them mail order? If you knew in advance you were going to get an atlantic blue tang, and retail was $350 but mail order was $100 you would mail order it, but you couldn't so you didn't. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted December 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 Rotorua is going to start importing in the new year he told me so that will only add to the problems who is importing in rotorua? is this an expansion of the freshwater import biz that was for sale last year? I cannot see how this will make things worse, it will give the retailers more choice for stock thus we will have more choice..... if the retailers blacklist him he will sell indirect which will undermine them and we will have more choice at a lessor price......... either way we will have more choice...... retail was $350 but mail order was $100 you would mail order it, but you couldn't so you didn't. which was why i started this thread, I thought that people may not want to pay $170 site unseen for a yellow tang, but they did and since have paid simmillar close to retail money for clowns, thus i am sure if steve/reef listed an atlantic blue tang you would trust that it was and bid accordingly..... you can always ask on trademe if you can see the item before bidding...... any online vendor will have to accuractely describe goods or risk losing future sales.... its a pretty important step in the future of the industry, if i was a wholesaler who was being blacklisted by retailers i would feel confident i could sell by trademe/email/web at prices about 20-30% less then retail and have a resonable demand from people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDM Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 Shops have to charge more than wholesale that is how they live. I don't work for nothing either. summed up in one easy statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetskisteve Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 wasp wrote: Shops have to charge more than wholesale that is how they live. I don't work for nothing either. So true but theres hardly a person on this site who hasnt bought either stock or equipment from a wholesaler and this has been going on for YEARS problem is not many will admit it for fear of losing these contacts! even shop staff have that privilage!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted December 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 which is probably why the shops do not introduce their clients to this site... are they scared they will meet the wholesalers here....????? or is it the negitive light many on here hold the shops in? again this has stopeed the effective formation of a marine club in AKL...... or people just do not give a s... and are interested only in their own pockets.... a conslusion i came to a while back. .I don't work for nothing either. wasp - neither do the wholesalers, they just start from a lower cost base..... so is the answer, lets all continue to verbally support the shops on here while quietly collecting plastic bags of fish/corals from the back doorways of importers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tang Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 top advice and service gets the sales Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDM Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 Funny thing is, I didn’t like this site for a long time, to the point where I wouldn’t use it at all, I preferred RC, I took me nearly 2 years to even register here. The reason for registering here in the end was being told time and time again to get on here by my preferred fish shop. Funny they would tell me to get on here if the wholesalers were a concern. If I had not found this site, I would not have met a heap of people that I now regularly contact and discuss my tank/there tank its great! at the end of the day, people will use the lfs when they start regardless of weather they have access to other sources, purely because when you start (or at least when I started) all you want is to see everything ASAP and buy as many of the cool pieces ASAP, this will require more than one supplier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tang Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 the $ allways wins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatix Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 Fay - So the point it you will mail order anything you can get as long as its cheaper, but will pay retail for things like live stock because you can't get them mail order? If you knew in advance you were going to get an atlantic blue tang, and retail was $350 but mail order was $100 you would mail order it, but you couldn't so you didn't. Pie Quite possibly (I cant speak for Fay) but i sat on that fish for probilbly 12 or more weeks, plus lost one from that shipment and bought three in total. I never doubted BIG BOY wouldnt make it in Fays tank and if after several weeks if not months of W Spot i probably wouldnt have replaced it but would have made SURE I LOOKED AFTER HER next time i saw her. Does any one here think that LFS dont have as high operating costs as the wholesaler if not more THINK AGAIN. It is my honest opinion that the two main marine shops in auckland play a bigger role in supporting this hobby than any one else concerened. And belive me it is a service that is offered there is basically no money in it. Look at the recent marines upgrade of a shop you go out and cost that plus spend the time to build it and add it up. Only to sit on stock for months plus loose stock plus operate. Also think that fish was $100 think again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatix Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 It is my honest opinion that the two main marine shops in auckland play a bigger role in supporting this hobby than any one else concerened. In central NI anyway (soz) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 Dogmatix - I see that as a very important service that a shops offers, which is what Fay was getting at I think. Holding onto a fish for 12 weeks so it was there when she wanted it is definatly catering to convieniance or impulse. I have no issue with that, infact its a model I support in all things. For example I just brought an XBOX360 game, I was in the mall and there it was, I knew I could get it $30 cheaper on TM/Mail order but I wanted it right then, so I brought it, knowing I had options to save money but not being willing to wait. As for sales and service, not a factor, it what we in our trade call a transactional sale. I knew what I wanted and I brought it, all they did was faciltite the sale. In this situation it was based on convienance, if I had brought it online, it would have been on money. I own a motorbike, and service is important for me in this regard, I want to deal with people I trust and who make me feel good, price nor convienance is not a major factor, it exists, but generally I give them all the business I can, they do what they can for me. In my trade we call this a loyalty based relationship, they will always get 1st option on my purchase. This is the reality of doing business. Many wholesalers in many trades are forced to go to market direct, look at Dell and the computer industry as an example. Dell destroyed a lot of companies, but they remain successful and the consumer benifited. pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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