reef Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 Nightline news highlighted the effects of collection of coral/fish. Clown fish and anemoes are hard to find on some australia reefs due to over collecting. Maybe it is time to stop importing fish/coral unless cultured. more facts found on the net. Finding Nemo, the world's best-known clown fish, may become harder than ever if the coral reefs that house his species continue to disappear at current alarming rates, marine ecologists say. Twelve million pieces of living coral and 20 million tropical fish are sold each year to decorate aquariums, part of a trade which could wipe out the planet's 600,000 square kilometres (240,000 square miles) of reefs -- a total area larger than France -- within decades, the experts warn. Tropical fish sales have boomed by 20 percent in the United States since the success of Disney's summer blockbuster "Finding Nemo", this year's highest-grossing movie. The film, which Disney expects to become the biggest selling DVD ever, recounts the adventures of Marlin, a red-and-white striped clown fish who crosses the Pacific Ocean to rescue his son Nemo after he is caught by divers and taken to an aquarium in a dentist's surgery in Sydney, Australia. "The film is a wonderful opportunity to get people to love the sea," said Stephane Henard, director of Nausicaa marine life centre at Boulogne, on the Atlantic coast of France. But he cautioned that the movie contained numerous errors and depicted the seas as far less polluted and dangerous than they really are. Pollution, commercial fishing and tourism have already damaged 10 percent of the coral reefs beyond repair and 40 percent are in danger, Henard said. Henard, quoting this year's report on the state of the oceans by the UN Environment Programme (UNEP), said the annual trade in tropical fish was worth between 200 and 330 million dollars, but 95 percent of fish were taken in the wild, often by methods which damage the reefs. These include explosives or poisons such as sodium cyanide, which stun the fish and make it easier to capture them. Fish which have been bred in captivity usually cost up to 30 percent more than wild fish, but have the advantage of being free of parasites and already accustomed to life in an aquarium, Henard said. In addition to fish and coral, some 10 million marine plants such as sea anemonies also find their way each year to doctors' waiting rooms, restaurants and private homes, 85 percent of them in the United States, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishboi Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 that is very upsetting to read, i dont get why there are such a high rate of collecting form the wild for saltys then fresh. i get that saltwater fish are a lot harder to breed but i would have thought most hard and soft corals would be grown in captivity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted October 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 i dont get why there are such a high rate of collecting form the wild for saltys Comes down to price most times. Hobbyist are not prepared to pay for cultured coral/fish. Most cultured stock cost 20-30% more than wild stock. That is why I believe if you can't afford to buy quality filtration then you should not attempt the hobby as so much stock is lost because of people trying to do it on the cheap. In the States it is so cheap that they just replace the stock every month. In NZ we have the same problem as for example about 100 copper bands have arrived this year and that continues every year, 90% of them die and we just keep replacing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 I almost thought of packing it up after I saw that last night. But then what happens to the stuff Ive got now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 What pisses me off is that 90% of reefkeepers havent studied or are not intelligent or motivated enough to actually have a successful aquarium and they kill them. This happens here too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 Never lost a fish or a coral Cracker? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puttputt Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 What pisses me off is that 90% of reefkeepers havent studied or are not intelligent or motivated enough to actually have a successful aquarium and they kill them. This happens here too. couldn't agree more, and with reefs comments re cost of this hobby. You don't have to buy all the top name brands but there is a serious amount of money needed to run a reef tank and people need to realise this. And people need to be aware of the time and cost in just the running and maintaining these aquariums. Seems to be alot of tanks that are set up for 6 months, then ditched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-s Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 This story was put together by channel 7 news in Australia and went to air Monday night. http://au.news.yahoo.com/061016/23/10xnp.html Please keep in mind it is a rather one-sided argument built on sensationalism (Channel 7 are not renouned for their objectivity.), there was no mention of tank-bred clowns providing an alternative to those wild caught. Coral and fish collection is monitored very closely by the Fisheries dept in Australia and whilst I am sure there are unscrupulous collectors out there, the few that I have had direct experience with (mainly in WA) are very focussed on the sustainability of the reefs, after all it's their livelihood too thats at stake. I didnt see last night's report but if it was similar to the Channel 7 one, they made some fairly outrageous claims. One I really didnt understand was that because of the removal of clownfish from the reef the reefs are now getting overrun by algae. I wasnt aware of clowns being good algae cleaners? I am a big advocate of aquacultured stock, I bred clowns and propogated corals back in Perth for trade and sale, I would always buy aquacultured stock over wild-caught if given the option and I still have problems with why certain corals/fish are collected (ie Goniopora, Dendronepthea, moorish idol) given their extremely poor survival rate in aquariums. There are issues to be addressed but I dont believe the collection of Clownfish are one of them. I'm not trying to start an argument here, I'm just saying don't take everything you read at face value. Cheers, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDM Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 Im sure if we all stopped and thought about it, we would have realised that keeping a reef tank will have an effect on the reefs of the world. What I didn't realise is that we (or mainly the USA) were taking that much from the reefs. I assume there has been a study into the growth rates of the natural reefs around the world, I have a DVD on the great barrier at home and it quotes the growth rate at an amazing amount per year, but I can remember the exact figure, be interesting to hear the total growth of all the natural reefs combined to give an annual squire km, also with aqua cultured pieces becoming more popular and also more available, it will be interesting to see if the reefs continue to suffer the same way they are now. Why is it that our hobby is getting the largest portion of the blame, when im sure that environmental condition, pollution and other factors all contribute to the decline in coral and fish populations? Is it that our hobby is doing the most damage? Maybe I just don’t want to feel guilty.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie extreme Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 if you feel guilty buying wild caught corals then check out trade me for available frags which are all home grown. they are also a lot hardier and adjust better then newly imported wild specimens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 Never lost a fish or a coral Cracker? The percentage of losses to live success is over 95% success for me. You?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 50/50 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 A lot of reefs are already damaged, not so much by collection for aquariums, as by global warming, pollution, and collection for such things as food, building materials, etc. It is likely that in 50 years only a small portion of the worlds existing reefs will still be functioning intact. Again, the main problem will be global wariming and pollution. I am very much an advocate of responsible collection, reefs can be "farmed", or aquacultured such as is done in one area in Fiji. However in one respect the aquarium trade does good in that for only a very small % of the total damage to reefs, it does raise public awareness of the beauty that is being destroyed, largely unknowingly, by reasons other than the aquarium trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 Thats interesting... Whats everyone elses "Live" to "Loss" ratios. (Purely interested to see how much of the livestock doesnt actually make it). Reef Wasp Fay Puttputt Chim And the rest of you! ?????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 Well I don't know what my survival % is, but if I'm honest it would be closer to Pies figure. That's part of why a few years back I started aquaculturing and selling corals, but there was no money in it, (for me anyway I believe Cookie is doing OK), so in the end I stopped doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trinity Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 If I had a choice between Wild caught fish and tank bred....tank bred would win. Same thing with corals...I would rather get a frag Main reason I want to try and breed my Maroon clowns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-s Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 Just done some quick numbers and pretty much spot on 50% each way. 50% of this (25% of total) was lost in a single tank crash (not that that is an excuse - dead is dead). Cheers, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puttputt Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 Current tank would be at least 90/10. Lost a few corals early on but haven't lost any for well over 1 year, and if fact created a number (frags). Only 2 fish lost in 18 months out of 20. Not so good, to be honest, if I go back to earlier tanks a number of years ago - back to eighties - when it would be close to the other way around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tang Posted October 19, 2006 Report Share Posted October 19, 2006 20% and only through fights shrimp mainly ,1 wrass through bad addvice touch wood! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted October 19, 2006 Report Share Posted October 19, 2006 I forgot about WS. Probably 15%!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted October 19, 2006 Report Share Posted October 19, 2006 Its all part of the great circle of life. Don't forget, over time everything will die. Wasp - I wanted to do what you do but the costs put me off too. What I have done now is I can sell frags from my tank. I only give corals away to people who trade, and I only ask for money so I know people appreciate what they are getting (less likley to just take it if I ping them $25 than offering it for free). I suspect well less than 1/2 of the stuff I have sold has survived. Just coral, no fish. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie extreme Posted October 19, 2006 Report Share Posted October 19, 2006 I suspect well less than 1/2 of the stuff I have sold has survived but thats perfectly ok as its tank grown and you still have the mother colony and mavbe even some more daughter colonies. and in that way people spend less, learn from/with it (one hopes) and are not depleting the natural resources to much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 19, 2006 Report Share Posted October 19, 2006 I think there are/will be real problems with a very small number of specific species of fish, and in-particular anemones. But for the vast majority of fish, the population doubling times is low enough that the real impact of removing them is small. And as far as corals go, by far the most destructive practise is limestone mining for building material. Then there is global warming. Which has yet to actually show any real long term destructive effect on the reefs. All the hype about the reefs disappearing in the next 50 years, seems to be just that - hype (as convenient as it is if you want to get funding for research). They won't disappear, they just won't be in the same places as they are now. They will (and are) moving. They've done it before, and there's nothing to suggest they won't do it again. The hobby isn't killing the reefs. There are a multitude of other practises which are causing significantly more damage the fish and coral collection. Sure it's not helping, but for the most part, it's a drop in the ocean relative to the other reef killers out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KP Posted October 19, 2006 Report Share Posted October 19, 2006 Twelve million pieces of living coral and 20 million tropical fish still seems like alot of life being taken from the sea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneo Posted October 19, 2006 Report Share Posted October 19, 2006 Did they mention the problem with farm run offs/ fert. leaching that contributes to reef depleation ?. That has to be a bigger problem than the hobby trade in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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