fishplants

Enjoy! You should really have more than one, though. They are a fish that have very strong schooling tendencies.

Hi Stella, just wondering how your Bully is?

Ira, If you read the rest of my post, rather than that very small part of a large sentence, you will note that all I talked about was the use of Prazi to treat worms, and three different methods of dissolving it, and the results of those three different methods. The 'based on google results' was mentioned in the same sentence as 'mixed it using vodka' which I thought was explicit enough to indicate that Google searches (and threads on this forum BTW) suggest using vodka to mix/dissolve prazi. Nowhere did I say, 'I tried using Vodka to remove PO4 and NO3 from my heavily planted tank'. Seemed shocked?! Yes, I was quite clearly shocked that the vodka would also fertilise bacteria and create a disastrous situation - that was the very essence and intent of the post. The post was intended to share my bad experiences in the hope that others might learn from it, and avoid the same problem. I am very sorry if it didn't entirely achieve that.

None, but I felt like finishing off the bottle myself!! The discus are fine thanks, and funnily enough they seemed the least affected during the ordeal - despite their reputation of being 'sensitive'.

Do you mean 'what was I trying to achieve by adding the vodka to the tank'? If yes, I was not trying to achieve anything by adding the vodka to the tank, the vodka was purely a method of dissolving the Prazi - quote from initial post "I used the same dose (2.5mg ai per litre), but this time I mixed it using vodka (unflavoured) based on Google results". I had hoped that was clear enough in my initial post?

No probs Nav. I certainly won't use vodka again, CO2 is a good source of carbon that doesn't seem to cause any bacterial issues, and the bacteria that seem to proliferate with vodka use (apparently) absorb too much NO3 and PO4, reducing availability for the plants.

No, this isn't a post about the dangers of drinking too much! I very recently had a bad experience with vodka in my community tank, and I would like to share this so others might avoid the same problems. First, set the scene; - I wished to perform a precautionary worming dose on my four new juvenile Blue Turquoise discus. After trawling this, and other forums, I settled on 2.5mg/l of Praziquantel (Prazi) in the form of Droncit tablets. In my 30l quarantine tank (QT) this equated to 1.5 tablets. QT running a single sponge filter. - I crushed the tablets to a very fine powder with a mortar and pestle, and then added 48 degree water and mixed. - I added the mix to the tank and monitored the fish very closely for four hours, no change in behaviour at all, except all four now were breathing from both gills (suspect that three of them had gill flukes). - There was quite a lot of white sediment on the bottom of the tank. - Waited 4 days and did a 50% water change (w/c), and then another one on day 6. - Re-dosed the tank with same quantity of Prazi on day 6, except, this time I dissolved it (rather nervously) with a small quantity of Isopropyl alcohol. Monitored the fish for four hours and no ill effects (phew!). This time there was far less white sediment on the bottom of the tank. - 50% w/c after four days and the fish looked great, breathing evenly and slower. Success! After this success I decided to dose the smaller of my community tanks (180l), which is also my oldest tank (10 years) so is very well established, and well planted. - Here enters mistake number 1. I used the same dose (2.5mg ai per litre), but this time I mixed it using vodka (unflavoured) based on Google results. So 8 Droncit tablets (160 litre net water volume) and about a dessertspoon of vodka. - added this to the tank at 1500hrs on Sunday. At 2200hrs everything looked fine, water had cleared from the initial cloudiness and the fish all seemed fine (Discus, Siamese Algae Eater (SAE), 10 yr old female Bristlenose (BN), Cardinals, Striata loaches). There was very little white sediment. - 0630hrs the following morning I put some flake in the tank (room light on only) as I do every morning, but noticed that the flake didn't move as it normally does, I concluded that there was a strong layer of surface algae (this should have been a warning - mistake number 2). - went out and got home at 1130hrs and noticed immediately the tank was cloudy white, like I had poured some milk in. There were two dead Cardinals and all the other fish were stressed and breathing very, very rapidly. Some were gasping sporadically at the surface. The BN was very, very unhappy and was not able to stay attached to the glass. There was a very thick milky surface film. - Suspecting (incorrectly) that the vodka had killed my biological filter and the fish were suffering severe ammonia poisoning, I tested the water to find ammonia 0ppm, nitrite 0ppm, and nitrates 20ppm (a little high but nothing to worry about). I moved the filter outflow so that it disturbed the surface. - I started and completed a 75% w/c, leaving the filter running the whole time so that the surface got really disturbed. After this the fish started to breathe slower and looked a little less stressed. The water was considerably clearer, but by 2100hrs it had become quite milky again. I did another 75% w/c and added an airstone. - during this time I dived into Google and found this interesting site http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php. - the next morning there had been no more deaths, and the water was clearer. By mid afternoon the water was Gin clear ('scuse the pun) and the fish were very happy. Did notice a wound on the BN though. Based on this extremely stressful problem, and subsequent reading, these are my conclusions; - vodka has been and is used primarily by salt tank owners, to get rid of NO3 and PO4 (Nitrates and Phosphates). The vodka is organic carbon, which allows growth of bacteria that absorb PO4 and NO3 very effectively. These settle on the surface and are removed by the protein skimmer. Note the low dose rates though, in the article above. - I affectively dumped in a massive dose of organic carbon which created a massive growth of bacteria, and the aerobic bacteria absorbed nearly all of the available oxygen (O2) causing severe respiratory distress to my fish. The w/c's, and the surface disturbance from the filter outflow and the airstone, overcame this. - I should have spent more time researching the use of vodka. I am normally quite 'anal' about researching, but I did not do it this time. Once I realised there was a problem, the issue was easy to find in Google. - This highlights the dangers of anecdotal evidence that can be found on the internet. - I will not use vodka in my tanks again. This mistake cost me the death of two Cardinals and a huge amount of stress. My BN has a wound about 12mm long which I suspect is a heater burn, she was so far gone that I believe she fell on the heater and was unable to move off it in her semi-asphyxiated state. She appears OK now, is eating and chasing everyone, so I hope it heals alright. On a brighter note, I have since dosed my larger tank with the same quantities of Prazi, but mixed with 55 degree water instead of vodka, and had no problems at all. Please note that I am not an expert in chemistry, biology or fishkeeping, and these are just my observations and conclusions. Please do your own research and form your own opinions. Apologies for the long post!

Sorry Stella, didn't realise that Bullies had so many large sensory pores! Discus only have the nostrils that are as visible, but a larger number of 'pin-prick' sensory pores.

Having said that, is that a hole to the upper back of the eye? Hard to tell from the photo.....

Doesn't HLLE/HITH normally result in craters (concave) rather than bubbles (convex)? That is certainly the way it was with my discus that suffered from this.

Hi John, very interesting findings, thank you for your thread. It would be interesting to get your water parameters, especially the phosphate levels. While this approach may work for that particular tank, it may not work for another tank with differing parameters. It does sound like your plants have really benefitted from the addition of PO4, which is probably the real reason for the reduction in algae - as the plants take advantage of the increase in a previously deficient major nutrient, they also use more of other major and minor nutrients (which may have been in relative abundance) to the detriment of the algae. It may actually be that the algae utilises the relatively abundant nitrates, or potassium, or iron, or ?, and putting PO4 in balances things out. My approach (guesswork?!?!) is to throw more ferts into the tank if I have algae, based on my assumption at the time of which one/s I think is/are deficient - or, if there is sufficiently good water parameters, then more plants will do the trick.

My understanding is that T5 require a different ballast to T8. Most T8 setups run on magnetic ballast whereas T5 (HO anyway, I'm not sure about 'standard' T5) require electronic ballast to run them. Maybe someone else could confirm that?

Definitely agree with this. I even have a small amount of dreaded Blue Green Algae (BGA) in my tank, it has been there for at least the last 6 years. It only grows below the gravel level at the front of the tank, where the glass 'transports' a small amount of light down about 6mm below the gravel surface - it comes and goes as well. It never comes above the gravel surface - well not since soon after the tank was setup and it covered absolutely everything!

Great idea! I, too, have green dot algae in my established tank. My phosphate level in this tank is zip. Interested to see the results John. It tends to come and go over a long period of time. If I don't have a small amount of green dot, I have a small amount of green fuzz, if I don't have a small amount of green fuzz I have surface algae. Amazing watching a mini eco-system and how the competition for resources goes on.

So 4 ballast x 2 tubes equals 8 x 849mm tubes in total? (I did that without a calculator too!) Thanks again

Looks brilliant Jennifer! What size are the T5 tubes? Thanks

Couldn't agree more! Except perhaps the bit about Trout and Salmon being worth more than 'a few inga (sp.) and bullys'. Maybe financially, but there are values other than financial ones that are as, or more, important than $ (I wish our current Government would realise that).

Hi Alan, it was some years ago I saw them (I don't fish the Selwyn much these days due to the poor water quality - more of a threat to our native fish than trout, oh, and water abstraction of course), but I seem to recall many different shapes, colours and sizes of the 'Goldfish' type fish. Maybe they were Rudd? Do they have significant colour variation? Must go and have another look once this weather clears up. cheers

Does this include the fish we keep in our tanks and ponds? Before you answer 'no', have a think about the Carp in the Waikato, Gambusia in Lake Rotorua, Goldfish in the Lower Selwyn River, and the various 'aquarium' plants choking some of our waterways. I know your post was probably tongue-in-cheek, but the issues above were all caused illegally/accidentally, and 'we' (keepers of introduced organisms) are not above reproach. Trout, also, were introduced into New Zealand for someones enjoyment. Cheers

That's pretty warm for whiptails, in fact pretty warm for a lot of fish! edit: oops - hadn't seen Jennifers post!!

I would go for a couple of Discus. 120l is plenty big enough for 2 full grown discus, that is 60l per fish. Most people recommend 10gal per adult which is about 40l per fish - Google it.

Hey Dennis, this has probably been mentioned elsewhere, but Soda Stream bottles will do the trick, cheaply. The only problem is they won't last as long as a 4kg cylinder. But, you could buy two of them so having one on while filling the other. Still need a regulator though. I bought a JBL CO2 kit years ago but couldn't adjust the needle valve easily - too much or too little, I bought a 2nd hand reg from a guy at Asco (and a 4kg cylinder from him as well) and that did the trick. cheers

Thanks for that, maybe it is the reactions that you mention Jennifer, that caused my vet to suggest not using it in fish. Jennifer, do you mind if I ask, what are your qualifications regarding your medication knowledge? I don't mean to appear rude, but you seem to know a lot about medications/chemicals etc. Thanks.

Just spoken to my vet. She said a good combination is Praziquantel in water and Fenbendazole in food. She recommended staying away from Levamisole due to toxicity, much harder to cause damage with the other two. cheers

Hi djvant, I have read the same, and (in my limited experience) I believe in it. As with all things though, it is not the only factor that can prevent or cause hole-in-the-head (HITH). If you have managed to sort through the thread posted by livingart, and ignored the argument about Metronidazole, you will realise that overally quality of life plays a big part in this affliction - ie water parameters, temperature, food and generally, stress. HITH, or head and lateral line erosion (HLLE) is caused by the fish dissolving tissue along the lateral line in times of nutritional deficiency - this can be caused by the above life quality issues and/or parasite/protozoa. Hex is often blamed solely for this issue, hence the use of Metro, but this is often just the catalyst or even non-existent. I have seen Discus that are fed only blood worms and freeze dried tubifex develop HITH due to a lack of nutritional balance. I have treated recently an adult Brown Discus for HITH, with Metronidazole, successfully. To be honest though, I believe her issues were actually caused by a bad diet and the stress of her transport bag leaking between AKLD and CHCH. Once I trained her to eat food other than bloodworms, the 1.5mm long hole has almost completely gone, she is fatter, and just looks happier. good luck