Krissie Posted July 1, 2006 Report Share Posted July 1, 2006 Hi, i have an Angel Fish who has been acting weird for about two weeks now. All he does is sit in the corner of the tank (it is now in the hospital tank) with his head upwards, about an inch from the water surface, and slightly curled. He is mildly interested in food, but when he eats he 'shimmies' backwards after taking the food into his mouth. He is not gasping, but appears to be using his fins more than his counterpart to stay still. This has been going on for about two weeks and he is not improving, nor is he getting worse. There is no swelling anywhere on him, and i have tried Epsom salts just incase, as well as the frozen pea theroy. This behaviour started the day after i had to add about 1/4 of the tank size of fresh water to the tank as we lost some water due to thirsty cats and evaporation. The cats have not 'spooked' him as he is used to them drinking out of there, and i usually notice when the cats are there. HE IS THE ONLY SICK FISH in the tank. The other Angel is fine and also in the hospital tank but mainly for company as they are tightly bonded. Any Advice would be good as i am not sure whether to leave him be or 'put him down'. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharn Posted July 1, 2006 Report Share Posted July 1, 2006 do you know what the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and possibly ph is? how long has the hospital tank been set up? is he gasping near the surface? if so i would increase airation for now, add an airstone, put the outlet of the filter a little bit above water line etc etc to get some more oxygen into there until we can try help you a bit more. good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krissie Posted July 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2006 have tested the water and all is as it should be. He is not gasping at the surface which is what is confusing me. He just sits there, slightly curled. The hospital tank is always running, but i have it a few degrees cooler than my main tank. It's water is all tested and is fine too. As said above.. he's been like this for two weeks and is not any worse nor better. A LFS suggested maybe some sort of brain damage infliced by my clown knife possibly chasing him at night? i'm not convinced as i see my tank alot when the lights are off, and the knife is not aggressive towards any other fish (although i know he will be when he grows up a little bit ) But hey... who knows! Any and all advice will be gratefully recieved. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krissie Posted July 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 Well he is still sick, but i have noticed a new development. It looks like his skin is falling off. Yes, his skin, not his scales or whatever. He also has a few 'pin prick' size black dots around his facial area. Where the skin is coming away it is reddish, but not raw. The skin is comming off mainly around his face and on his fins. It looks like slightly fluffy strands of cotton. The other Angel in the tank, who has been with him from day one, is not sick, and is showing no signs of illness either. I am still stumped as to what to do for this wee guy, and have been searching the net for answers, but so far nothing. Please help if you can. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharn Posted July 3, 2006 Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 my guess is the 'skin' is his slime coat. they can shed them for a number of reasons, water quality, chemicals in the tank, parasites etc etc. what colour is your angelfish (re the pin prick dots). i have no idea what could be causing it to be honest, furan 2 is a good all round med which might be worth a shot? its a pretty mild med to use also. good luck with your angel, keep us posted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpidersWeb Posted July 3, 2006 Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 Ok with all my deaths over the first few weeks, I learned some things. So I think the fungus and rot are secondary infections. I'd say the fish got stressed, and bacteria has taken hold. This could be because he was chased, or maybe even as simple as he didn't like the new water. Also your hostpital tank needs to be warmer, raise it to about 27 deg C (80-82F), this will speed up his immune system. Do the change slowly as not to further stress him. Make sure the water is clean and dechlorinated (eg water ager/conditioner). Add Furan 2, and follow the instructions. You could also possibly use a little Melafix to assist with his slime coat. Furan 2 is expensive, but it actually works for bacterial infections and I'd say thats what you have. It is a broad-spectrum anti-biotic. Sooner you get going, the sooner he'll be feeling better. Make sure you dont overfeed, esp. in the hospital tank. If he's not eating, dont put food in until he looks hungry, otherwise it'll just feed bacteria. Black things are probably parasites, wouldn't worry about those at the moment, when he's better he'll rub them off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krissie Posted July 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2006 My Angel is white, so things show up easily on him. I will raise the temp as suggested on the hospital tank, i must have got it the wrong way round, i thought cooler was better for sick fish..lol...oops! I will try and get the meds on thursday from the LFS. I really hope it works as i feel really sorry for the little guy! he looks so sad all the time! I was thinking that maybe he wasn't 'cleaning' himself, because he doesn't seem to want to do anything but sit there in the corner, and was kinda wondering if this was the reason for the arrival of the 'skin' stuff on him. I would normally give them Blood worm and flakes, but have not been feeding them the blood worm since they have been in the Hospital tank as there are no bottom feeders to clean up any leftovers, and flakes seem to just go straight up the filter intake if they are left to sink any. Should i keep him on his normal diet of both or just stick to the flakes while he is in there? Thanks again for your advice,andplease keep it comming. I am yet to loose a fish to an unknown cause, and i hope to keep it that way. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharn Posted July 4, 2006 Report Share Posted July 4, 2006 his little black dots arent like indents in his head are they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krissie Posted July 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2006 hey, the dots on his head are really small, like he's been pricked with a tiny pin, and are just on one side. More concerning... the other angel in the tank has bright red bases to his side fins (forgot what they are called?) About 2mm around the entire base of the fins. This was not there last night. I added some 'Formalin' to the tank last night before bed, as i thought this might help in case it was Flukes or something similar. Could this Med have caused the redness, or is he comming down with the same thing as his mate, but showing different symptoms? Help! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharn Posted July 4, 2006 Report Share Posted July 4, 2006 watch those dots, they could just be sensory pits but they could develop into hole in the head (HITH). i am unsure what causes redness, perhaps a bacterial infection? or it could just be irritated flesh. the formalin we buy from shops is apparently too weak, but formalin does kill good bacteria and depletes oxygen so increase airation and watch your parameters for a while. sorry i cant be of more help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpidersWeb Posted July 4, 2006 Report Share Posted July 4, 2006 As a way of distracting myself from the reality that I should be doing work, I did some more digging. Found a few posts on a few forums about angels, and seems the most likely cause for the red streaks in the plectoral fins is a bacterial infection. So once again, I recommend using Furan2. If you do not see improvements after 5 days, then try something else. If the holes get larger and deeper over time, you may have hole in the head, but hopefully these go away once the fish is back on track. Formalin does make it harder for fish to breath, but if they're not gasping at the surface, shouldn't create a problem. I should also mention that I dont have 20 years of experience under my belt or anything like that. What I have had is the exact same experience with angels and spent a lot of time researching, my advice is basically a summary of what I've found. I beleive a swinging pH and overfeeding were the problems in my tank, but Furan2 was the only medication that worked on the unwell individuals. Saved two young firemouths who are now happy as larry adventuring my new planted tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krissie Posted July 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2006 well this morning things are not looking any better. The angel who has been sick for nearly 3 weeks now is still the same, but with more slime layer coming off and thats about it. Angel #2, who has been fine up till the fin thing last night is now 'flashing' and such, and this is with the lights off! Not gasping though, yet! Im swinging towards a diagnosis of Flukes. It seems to make the most sence, except for the fact that the first sick fish is still alive?! What are the chances of two fish in one tank developing two unrelated illnesses? Pretty slim is my guess.... Q:? Should i put something in the hospital tank for them to 'Flash' against? The tank is bare at the moment, with just the gravel on the bottom, and the intake hose pipe for them to rub on. Will scratching this itch make any difference? Also, if i do have Flukes, and you can't buy 'fluke tabs' anymore, what should i use? Have heard of drontal wormers. But are they tabs for cats or dogs? Does it make a difference? Does it have to be Drontal? I'm going to do a 25% water change today and then add some more Melafix and maybe some cycle just incase. will be here randomly all day. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpidersWeb Posted July 4, 2006 Report Share Posted July 4, 2006 Once a fish gets sick from one thing its weakend, and flukes parasites fungus etc all take advantage. Perhaps a Furan2 + Melafix cycle will help them recover. If the flukes are really taking hold and the fish are having serious trouble breathing, then you can use dog wormer. You need the 'All Wormer' that contains 50mg of Praziquental. I used VitaPet Super All Wormer and I dose it at one tablet per 20-30L. You need to dissolve it with hot water and munch it up in to a paste before adding it to the tank, absolutely abliterates the flukes. I had the same problem as you, fish get sick with one thing then flukes etc get in. My fish showed releif within 1 day. It makes the water pink and leaves a huge mess so hospital tank only. Was basically a waste of time however, as the bacterial infection (that let the flukes get in) still killed the fish fairly promptly. Furan2 - can't say enough 8) flukes, parasites, fungus etc are minor problems compared. When we get sick, we get anti-biotics and just deal with the snot coming out of our nose haha. Nobody has called me an idiot yet, so I'm confident with my suggestion. Since reducing feeding, and buffering my water, I've had no more sick guys but the last two were saved with the help of Furan2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krissie Posted July 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2006 cheers for that SW, and i will be getting The Furran 2 tomorrow first thing. Can i treat both at the same time? the wormer pills and the furran 2? What about the itching stone for them? should i put something in? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpidersWeb Posted July 4, 2006 Report Share Posted July 4, 2006 I'm not sure about Furan2 and the wormers at once. I haven't heard anything bad, just haven't tried it or read about it, so I have no idea sorry! Personally I'd stick with Furan2 + Melafix. IF the flukes problem gets out of hand and the fish have serious trouble breathing, then perhaps try both at once, but I wouldn't recommend risking it if you dont need to. Yeah if you can find something smooth for them to flash against, that'll help keep them more comfortable. Rub the skin flukes off. Good luck! Let us know what happens, I'm really hanging out for a happy ending. (on a more positive note, my school of 15 neons just learned I'm the new food guy) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharn Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 look into skin flukes, i am unsure if you can see them but that explains the flashing (if its not gill flukes, which probably wouldnt cause them to shed) and they might be shedding to try and rid themselves of the parasite? i wouldnt use the two meds together, its a possibility they could be but i always try to not mix unnatural meds if i can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krissie Posted July 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 UPDATE. Both fish now alternating between being at the top of the tank and gasping a little, to going and sitting on the bottom of the tank. Done the water change and added a clean piece of rounded slate for them to 'flash' on, but they are not 'flashing' anymore. Neither looked interested when i went up to feed them, so i left it for tonight. One night won't kill them, i hope! If they survive the night then i'll get the Furran 2 stuff at the LFS during the day and start treatment. The Angel who only started looking sick last night seems to be worse than the one who has been sick for near on 3 weeks, so i'm hoping he pulls through. Will keep you posted. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krissie Posted July 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2006 Well, they are still alive. Have been treating with Furran 2 for 3 days now and it seems to have cured the Angel with the redness, flashing etc. The Angel who swims funny is getting there i think. Tonight i had to bring home my in-laws Young Bala Shark because he has something seriously wrong with him. His eyes are cloudy AND Bloodshot, and he is not shiny like he should be, gone really dull. So yeah, anyway, i put him in with my two Angels and the healthier one attacked him! Grabbed him by the fin and shook him like a dog! Poor Bala Shark! I figured, if the Angel is well enough to fight then he's well enough to go back into my main tank for a night, till i figure out what to do! My in-laws don't have a hospital tank so that is why i bought their Bala Home. I may have to set up a second hospital tank?! Problem there is, My baby Rainbow Skinks are living in it at the moment and they can't swim! Always something going on with my animals & fish! :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krissie Posted July 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 UPDATE #2 My Angel is looking alot better. i am on my 6th dose of Furran 2 Today and he is looking alot Happier He does seem to look better in the mornings though, by sort of 4pm he goes back to the top of the tank, to 'his' corner, and chills out there. How long should i keep treating him? He is eating better, and searching the gravel through the day for 'tid-bits', but as i said, he does seem to get 'tired' at around 4pm. :-? Any suggestions? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpidersWeb Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 woohoo With the furan, just follow the instructions. Sounds like everything is going well He could be just a lil tired as his body is recovering? Not sure to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krissie Posted July 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 Hi guys. Today i tested my water in the hospital tank, and all was good EXCEPT the Ph levels! It has dropped dramatically! It was 7 now it is more like 6 or less! (was lighter than my guide chart goes!) Are the meds doing this? Still just using Just the Furran. Should i add a small piece of coral? Or the 'Ph Up' liquid stuff i have? Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 I don't know if the meds alter the pH but DON'T USE pH Up stuff!! You need to find out what is causing the drop. pH Up will probably only work temporarily and resulting pH swings will stress the fish out more than a constant low pH will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krissie Posted July 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 i don't honestly know what could be causeing the ph drop. There are just the two sick fish, and a piece of slate in the tank, with standard gravel, same as always. nothing has changed as far as that is concerned. Temp is at 26, as usual.... The fish are an Angel and a Bala Shark, and from memory they like the ph around 7. What causes a ph crash? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharn Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 low carbonate hardness (kh). that is your buffering for your ph and if its not very high you can get big swings. get some bird grit (the stuff they eat), put it in a stocking (amount depends on tank size) and put it in or near your filter. this will slowly up your kh and in turn your ph a bit but it will make everything stable. baking soda also works but its pretty touchy (hard to get the exact increase you want) and works instantly. shell grit slowly works (i find a week or so and i see improvements) and you can moniter and remove or add bits as necessary without worrying about causing large changes. good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krissie Posted July 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 Cheers sharn! will give that a go.... lucky i have birds too huh...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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