How much live rock do you really need?

[puttputt]

CE, is there anyone on this board that doesn't feed the SPS??

[cookie extreme]

puttputt wrote:

the majority of corals (sps) we keep in our tanks are gain the majority (98%) of there food from the algae theykeep within and sharing of the nutrients that they produce.

Pretty much

Hold up. Who's saying they will live on light alone?

mincing words again! :roll:

SPS seem to take quite a large amount of the daily requirement from the water colum. the view until very recently was to keep SPS in "nutrient poor" enviroments which resulted in poor growth, TN and / or total a dieback of the entire colony. just look how many acro's come in, how many died and all that with BB, Huge skimmers and the best CR or Liquid dosing systems around. refugiums seem to be very good for fish but i would say they also produce a nice extra in form of coral food (nutrients).

so why buy all that dead expensive food (until MAF allows live food into the country {yeah right}) that only pollutes our tanks and gets skimmed out as quick as you chuck it in? when you can produce the same in your tank all by itself. (or as close as possible at least at present) with no extra cost? or is it just great marketing by companies that produce all that food and steer / direct us in a paticular direction. ( like is eating a bowl of cereal for breakfast really healthy? or is just thats what we are told by the ones that make it (and spend mega bucks on promoting it too to keep the profits rolling!)

well will be interesting to see what happens in the next 5 or so years in regards to feeding what and how to SPS.

[lduncan]

It's not mincing words Cookie. I've never said corals only need light to live, not even SPS.

Just note that there is a difference between nutrient poor, and food poor. In the context we usually use these terms in the hobby.

The older "Berlin" systems are not the same as BB systems of today. They had problems because of other factors, and were run differently to what BB systems of today are.

I think you might be interested in what i'll post tonight on the subject. It might make you think a little differently.

Layton

[puttputt]

mincing words?, that was a good discussion on systems with a whole lot of ideas being thrown about.

I've said a number of times in alot of different posts that I run a refugium, and feed Pohls CV daily for the corals benefit.

Layton may be the only one not actively feeding his sps??, not sure about that.

I was asking a genuine question, raise your eyebrows at someone else.

[lduncan]

Also Cookie, it is true that some corals can get up to 98% of their food from zooxanthellae alone. Of course there is a whole spectrum of requirements for different corals.

This number also seems reasonable, as zooxanthellae are more associated with supplying nutrients for calcification. Where as the "captured" food is used for supporting the coral tissue itself. When you look at some sps, they lay down a LOT of calcium carboante skeleton mass, relative to their own cellular tissue mass. They are just a thin coating over the skeleton.

Layton

[lduncan]

Started a new thread about feeding here http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/viewto ... 206#155206

Pretty much sums up my opinion on the matter re sand / no sand and feeding tanks.

Layton

[wasp]

Also Cookie, it is true that some corals can get up to 98% of their food from zooxanthellae alone.

Layton

I think I may have realised where you are confused. You have failed to realise that zooxanthellae have to get their food from somewhere. They cannot live on nitrogen alone. Sure they use nitrogen, AND they derive other essential nutrition from food ingested by the coral.

[lduncan]

Not confused at all. Don't forget that zoxanthellae are pretty much plants -> photosynthesis. Coral tissue is animal cell. They don't photosynthesise.

[Feelers]

Wasp I'd be really interested in seeing what happens if you incorporated a DSB into your system, I definately think you should experiment with it! As a man who loves his SPS surely it's got you wondering.

It would be great to see your results - "DSB addition to an established BB tank". The type of thing that not many try but loads would take interest in. I think the breakdown that happens in the DSB does something to provide corals with that extra oomph.

[Fay]

cracker wrote:

Chim...I do a major sand siphon, (detritus), every second water change or 3 months.

cracker after reading all that I'm thinking now are we doing the wrong thing by cleaning the sand (are we taking out good critters etc with the siphon)?

[wasp]

Wasp I'd be really interested in seeing what happens if you incorporated a DSB into your system.

Yes I'm figuring a way now, it will be a remote one, not in the tank. There are some possible names for the thread on it :-

"DSB meets BB"

"Shimek meets Duncan"

"Unmoveable Object meets Irresistable Force"

And Oh -

Not confused at all. Don't forget that zoxanthellae are pretty much plants -> photosynthesis. Coral tissue is animal cell. They don't photosynthesise.

Layton you got enough marbles to know I didn't forget that! :lol: . Photosynthesis? Do you realise that when farmers grow a crop, they put fertilizer on it? Like all photosynthetic organisms, the crop require a balance of minerals, trace elements, etc. Nitrogen alone will not cut the mustard. So do zooxanthellae need all that. How do they get it? It is ingested by the coral. That is what symbiosis is all about.

So what happens if the farmer does not see to it that the crop has enough of the required nutrients? Stunted, ratty crop. Bit like some of our corals.

[wasp]

cracker wrote:

cracker after reading all that I'm thinking now are we doing the wrong thing by cleaning the sand (are we taking out good critters etc with the siphon)?

Cracker and Fay, I think you have cut to the chase here. The post highlights the dilema, and the reason some will not feed their corals. The contents of the sand bed, or for that matter anything we feed the corals, will add phosphate & other undesireables to the tank.

Nonetheless, in the wild, corals ingest large amounts of planktonic food and this is very good for them.

So the argument is not really about to feed or not to feed, it's about how to feed, without polluting the tank. IMO any sand bed must be vacuumed from time to time or eventually negative consequences will result. It's all about balance & that's where skill comes in because it must be different with every tank.

[reef]

It's all about balance & that's where skill comes in because it must be different with every tank.

Amen.

[wasp]

:bounce:

[lduncan]

Yes I'm figuring a way now, it will be a remote one, not in the tank. There are some possible names for the thread on it :-

"DSB meets BB"

"Shimek meets Duncan"

"Unmoveable Object meets Irresistable Force"

And Oh -

Not confused at all. Don't forget that zoxanthellae are pretty much plants -> photosynthesis. Coral tissue is animal cell. They don't photosynthesise.

Layton you got enough marbles to know I didn't forget that! :lol: . Photosynthesis? Do you realise that when farmers grow a crop, they put fertilizer on it? Like all photosynthetic organisms, the crop require a balance of minerals, trace elements, etc. Nitrogen alone will not cut the mustard. So do zooxanthellae need all that. How do they get it? It is ingested by the coral. That is what symbiosis is all about.

So what happens if the farmer does not see to it that the crop has enough of the required nutrients? Stunted, ratty crop. Bit like some of our corals.

[lduncan]

Screwed that up. Need that edit back.

[wasp]

Yes can be a pain that no edit thing, specially after a long day of dodging work & writing posts Layton :lol:

Anyhow, what did you think of my post to Cracker & Fay?

Something you & I could both live with?

[cracker]

Skill....Beautifully put WASP.

[wasp]

:bounce: I'm starting to like this thread more and more!

[lduncan]

Nonetheless, in the wild, corals ingest large amounts of planktonic food and this is very good for them.

Remember it's not the ONLY way they get their requirements. That planktonic food isn't always there, it comes in goes in cycles. Corals either have to be good at storing stuff, or they need to be able to get from other sources when plankton aren't available. It may happen that in Nature corals get the majority of their no zooxanthellae provided food from plankton, but that doesn't mean it has to get it using this method in out tanks. The other sources may be more convenient and easier for them.

So the argument is not really about to feed or not to feed, it's about how to feed, without polluting the tank. IMO any sand bed must be vacuumed from time to time or eventually negative consequences will result. It's all about balance & that's where skill comes in because it must be different with every tank.

That pretty much sums it up. For me sand does seem to be the answer to the feeding question.

Layton

[lduncan]

God damn it. That edit function strikes again. That should read

"For me sand doesn't seem to be the answer to the feeding question."

[wasp]

:bounce:

[wasp]

Oh, the word doesn't changes everything. Looks like I posted my leaping nome too fast. For a minute I thought you had seen the light Layton :lol: .

Corals either have to be good at storing stuff, or they need to be able to get from other sources when plankton aren't available. Layton

No they don't, times of scarcity don't last very long at sea, all they do is stop growing, same as we observe in our under nutrientated tanks sometimes.

[reef]

Corals have to be feed!

Even if it is an often overlooked fact with respect to plankton filter feeders that are often fastened to the substrate: all animals depend on ingesting the energy for motion and metabolic processes from the food they eat. The spectrum of marine invertebrates that cover a part or their entire nutritional needs from zooplankton or phytoplankton ranges from sponges to soft and leather corals all the way up to whales. Reef-building stony corals also belong to the family of plankton filter feeders, even though another source of nutrients is available to them because of their symbiotic relationship with zooxanthellae.

[lduncan]

Oh, the word doesn't changes everything. Looks like I posted my leaping nome too fast. For a minute I thought you had seen the light Layton :lol: .

No they don't, times of scarcity don't last very long at sea, all they do is stop growing, same as we observe in our under nutrientated tanks sometimes.

Eric thinks they do, that's why they can get it from inorganic sources. That's why they actively farm bacteria in their mucus.

Are you sure that's the reason corals can stop growing, lack of nutrients in our tanks. I'm not so sure.

Layton