Poppy Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 I hope I am not out of line or off topic, if so then please excuse and feel free to boot me where it belongs . . . I have at last aquired some gear with the plan of having a marine tank. Unsure if its realistic but ideally I'd like a couple of clownfish and maybe 6 or so other brightly coloured warmwater fish. An anenome or two and some coral. What I have is a * corner tank & stand, approx 280L * Biolife 55 Filter with inbuilt heater * Hidor Prime 30 900 LPH External Power Filter * Heaters * 1 tub of Coral/Sand gravel * 1 tub of Shells/Sand gravel * Assorted dead corals and decorative pieces (That blurb straight from the sales pitch) Questions..... 1. Does the gear seem suitable for my plans? 2. I am honestly at a loss as to my next move 3. Can anyone point me to a website that will walk me through the process in non tech terms. 4. Do the fish/corals etc travel well by courier (same island). Feel free to consider me dumb on this subject, but I am a keen learner. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 The short answer is no, not even close. You first should look at doing some reading: Try the Tullock "Natural Reef Aquairum" for excellent setup instructions for a new marine keeper. book can be brought from Jansens for under $100 (I think ben?), or online for a little less. To keep Anemones you will need more light and much better water quality than what you would get with your list of equipment. To keep coral, you might need better lighting and a protien skimmer as a minimum. You will need some live rock as well. You will need test kits and some way to measure salinity. 8 fish in a tank that size if far to many. My tank and total system is over 2500 litres, I have 13 fish, several are smaller than your thumb. You can't mix power heads with Anemones. They get sucked in and killed. Note I didn't use the words 'they might' as they will. For websites I would highly reccomend checking out www.reefcentral.com for all the hints and advice you could possible need. You can come to this forum for more local help. I'm not trying to put you off, even though it may sound like it. Its a great hobby, but it takes time, patience and lots of money. I am not going to start an arguement about how much but be prepared to spend over 2k from here EXCLUDING live stock. If that doesn't scare you, good luck I am sure we will see you about. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 Pies is 100% correct. First and foremost do more research - learning a bit more than it appears like you currently know (or rather don't know - no offence) prior to even putting a drop of water in your tank is crucial. I'm at about $15-$20k for my tank and still got bits and pieces to go Dont let that put you off either as it can be done for a considerable amount less. Best way to start is to go visit someone with a decent reef (or fish only) setup to get some ideas. I think chatting to someone who's been in the hobby for a while is certainly the best starting point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 The tank you have is a good place to start. 280 litre's nice size for a first tank. The biolife 55 filter is not recomended for the biological filtration of a saltwater tank as this type of filtration does not eliminate nitrate. Instead, in a 280 liter tank you put approximately 28 Kg dead coral rock. Use big chunky type rocks not small rubble or finger type coral. The pores in the rock house bacteria that do all the biological filtration, including nitrate reduction, which cannister filters will generally not do. The coral rock needs to be "cured" prior to use, which means it is put in seawater for 6-8 weeks to get a working population of bacteria, this can be done in the tank, no fish should be put in the tank until this process is complete. The tub of coral sand will be good to put on the bottom, the shells will not, as they will accumulate decaying matter and detract from your water quality. The power filter can be used for circulation, and also to put stuff in such as carbon. It should not be used for biological filtration. Flow, you need a lot in a reef tank, a minimum of 10 x literage, ie for a 280 litre tank you need a minimum of 2,800 litres flow per hour. For example, 2 x 1400 litre per hour powerheads. Light, a kind of rule of thumb is 1 watt of light per litre, although this can be varied quite a bit depending what you are keeping. You may be able to get away with 1/2 that, or double that. The other thing you need is a protein skimmer, although some people do not have one I would not recommend trying without one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppy Posted March 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Thank you for your help, both in this forum and privately. I was fully aware I did not have all the equipment I required, I was asking however if what I did have was sufficient for my needs. Obviously not entirely., so thank you for those who input here. I admit to initially feelling a bit peeved at Pies response. I actually felt I had been rapped over the knuckles for even thinking I might like to do this. However I suppose Pies has no knowledge whether I am a 'wannabe' or a ditz who thinks everything can be instant. Or even dumb enough to emark on this sort of project without books or reading. Part of my research into the project was to ask here. I was told I would get some guidance . . . sorry but that resonse tells me I need more knowledge before I ask here. Many thanks tho for taking the time to reply . . . .and to wasp for your helpful and encouraging response:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Peeved at me? You asked a question, I spent 5 minutes of my time answering your questions based on my own experance and what I have seen from others. I took the time to respond to each of your questions and answer them. However I suppose Pies has no knowledge whether I am a 'wannabe' or a ditz who thinks everything can be instant. Well yes I did have an idea: Feel free to consider me dumb on this subject Now I am peeved, looks like I wasted my time in responding, I won't make this mistake twice. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie extreme Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 thats the reason i never reply to any off these questions because you look bad in the end being such an honest truthful reefer in giving them a straight answer. i rather give my advise ion person to people that come to see me for help or to get some frags etc.. one is then able to ask all the right quetions, getting answer and can make recommandations face to face. i quite often get questions like what light is needed when i sell mushrooms at trade me. my response lately has been to buy a beginners guide to marine keeping. basic start up help needed = buy a beginners guide to marine keeping thats the best advise i can give you and you wont get pissed off with people either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppy Posted March 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 I admit to initially feelling a bit peeved Pies, I did say 'initially. And I'm sorry that my honesty upset you., but I did not choose to be peeved, it was merely what you conveyed to me in your response. I dont control that. I'm really sorry I wasted 5 minutes of your time. It wasn't my intention, nor was offending you. My excitement of starting the road to realising a long held dream had just been shot to pieces with the implication that I was jumping into something I had no right to. You never once told me what I needed, merely that I needed better than I have. To the inexperienced this is no help whatsoever. Again, I am sorry that I offended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Ha Ha welcome to the forum!! You're now a fully blooded member, first conflab under your belt! Actually people are a bit forthright here and there's some arguing, but ask away, you'll get answers to your questions, and some of the more "upfront" members will also turn out to be the most helpful. Don't take any crap as I see you don't, and you'll be fine! By the way I see you give your location as "the beach west of Palmerston North", would that be Foxton by any chance? I have relatives there and hung out there a bit many years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feelers Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Dudette (sorry) dont worry too much about annoying people - something about saltwater makes everyone confrontational. I think Pies has been consistantly on this forum since 2002? You can imagine how many newbies have asked the same things since then(this does include me!), its great he's still even answering! Alright first up - definate step, get a skimmer. If you find one you like the look of bring it up here and people will give you an honest opinion about it. Second thing you might want to look into is getting a sump... http://www.melevsreef.com/what_sump.html Your current equipment would probably be ok for a fish only tank. There are heaps of cool fish that you cant keep in a reef tank, so you'd have big options. I dont know if anyone here has a fish only setup? Decide specfically what you want to keep, anemones are difficult - they need good strong lighting good water conditions and high flow. Fish only is relativly easy. Soft corals, - lowish good lighting, and lowish flow. Hard corals, same as anemones. I suggest going for the soft coral tank - you get cool corals, reef fish, and shrimps ect, but without the difficulty of the anemones or sps. Then you can always upgrade relativly easily to them if you want to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Dude With a name like Poppy I suspect we may have a Dudette! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feelers Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Very well post edited - what is poppy "short" for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppy Posted March 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 thats the reason i never reply to any off these questions because you look bad in the end being such an honest truthful reefer in giving them a straight answer. i rather give my advise ion person to people that come to see me for help or to get some frags etc.. one is then able to ask all the right quetions, getting answer and can make recommandations face to face. i quite often get questions like what light is needed when i sell mushrooms at trade me. my response lately has been to buy a beginners guide to marine keeping. basic start up help needed = buy a beginners guide to marine keeping thats the best advise i can give you and you wont get pissed off with people either. In other words, buy a book and dont ask dumb questions here? I actually never saw any sign on the door that said the forum was for experienced people only Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Did you actually bother to read what I wrote? You never once told me what I needed, merely that I needed better than I have. Try the Tullock "Natural Reef Aquairum" for excellent setup instructions for a new marine keeper. book can be brought from Jansens for under $100 (I think ben?), or online for a little less. To keep coral, you might need better lighting and a protien skimmer as a minimum. You will need some live rock as well. You will need test kits and some way to measure salinity. You asked these questions: 1. Does the gear seem suitable for my plans? 2. I am honestly at a loss as to my next move 3. Can anyone point me to a website that will walk me through the process in non tech terms. I gave you what I think is good advice, to help you move onwards, I thought I was helping you out. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feelers Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 I actually never saw any sign on the door that said the forum was for experienced people only Definately not, well at least in my case. - I have only ever kept (in my lifetime!!) two fresh water turtles - one of which died. :roll: My salt water experience is technically zero. But - I have read up for ages about it online, -looking back a book would be a good idea, it has everything you need listed. Online its hard to know what you need to learn about- if that makes sense. There are so many things to think about in saltwater, and untill you get used to it new things you havent even considered keep popping up. Definatly ask if you can go see someones tank too - you'll see we arent psychos on a newbie slaughtering rampage. , and youll get good advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppy Posted March 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Okay .. . weapons down and peace flag flying. The written word is often seen by some as so different to others. I read things in I shouldn't have perhaps. I did apologise & I was serious about it. Back to square one....................... Yes I have invested in a book. (I am a bookseller by trade, it goes without saying for me) Yes I am blonde but I dont consider myself a ditz. I never expected to put water in my tank tomorrow. Nor did I know what a powerhead was. Nor what dead or live rock was. Nor that anenomes are difficult or 'different' to other things Nor what 'better light' is - better than what? Nor the ratio of fish to water. Nor can I visit any tanks as I know of none other than a very distant pet shop. Nor know what will give me 'better quality water' than current equipment allows. This is what I came here for. I honestly believed that coming in here I could ask these questions & hope for a reaosnable ammount of help. For me to buy the required, or better, I need to know what fits that bill. Although finances are obviously an issue, I am aware it is costly, I am aware its time consuming, and I am aware its not instant. Thus the research and time spending learning.... If I have been wrong in any of my expectations than please say so & I will wander off elsewhere Wasp & Feelers.... Thank you, and Yes, Dudette, but no not Foxton. Foxton is 2 beaches south of me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Getting over comments made by people on this forum is the second stepping stone, not taking them to heart is the first. Too many people with differing opinions. You will always get the similar responses from a few of us (myself included if you dont even know some of the basic terminology (where you could pick this up from books) There is SOOOO much to learn for someone to explain just the basics would take a month Not that you knew that, or not that I knew that when I started - hence why my first sentence above still stands. We (mostly grown men) have quite a few "cat fights" on this forum its actually quite childish... but then we know that so hiding behind a keyboard is the easy route Back to square one... See you're learning quick :lol: Nor did I know what a powerhead was. Nor what dead or live rock was. Nor that anenomes are difficult or 'different' to other things Nor what 'better light' is - better than what? Nor the ratio of fish to water. Nor can I visit any tanks as I know of none other than a very distant pet shop. Nor know what will give me 'better quality water' than current equipment allows Are you saying you did not know these til now, or still don't know these? I'll pick one of the above and answer it for you since its the only one thats a question Nor what 'better light' is - better than what? Better than bad light Lighting is all down to what you want to keep. If you were doing fish only, then basic lighting (medium/moderate power output) is sufficient as fish dont require intensive light. On the other hand, corals require more intense lighting as (most, not all) need to survive via photosynthesis. There are 3 basic types of corals, softies, lps and sps. Softies and lps generally require a moderate light, SPS (hard corals such as acropora) generally require intensive light. So all this leads to the types of lighting you can choose. There are many available, the most common are halides (pretty much closest to the sun) and T5's (often used as supplemental lighting or to provide light in the blue spectrum) Halides come in different wattages, the higher the wattage the greater the intensity (or lumens for a better word) Generally they come in 150W, 250W and 400W. 250W probably the most common. Next is the Kelvin rating of the bulb. This dictates the colour of the bulb, 6-7k yellow, 10K yellow/white, 14k white/blue and 20k blue. There are others but these are most common. Most opt for 10K or 14K's (these are the colours most aesthetically pleasing plus contain most of the colour spectrum used by corals) T5's and T8's are pretty much fluoros, the number indicating the size of the bulb. T5 thinner than T8 but more commonly used. These are a lower wattage than halides so not as intensive, usually around 54W each. Most use T5's to supplement the halides. So as you can see, that is just one aspect of a reef tank very basically put. I could go into considerable amount more detail on lighting, such as lux, brands of bulbs, etc etc. Additionally, it is highly likely someone will debate what I have written above, saying "6-7k is what most corals need as this is closest to sunlight" etc Biggest thing to understand is in this hobby even those considerably experienced in the field have widely differing opinions. And always remember "what works in one persons tank may not work in anothers" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Hi poppy, things do sometimes get pretty heated in here but most of us know each other pretty well (if sometimes only online) and are mostly all friends. There are alot of people that post here asking similar questions then just disappear when they start to get an idea of what is involved (cost and time wise) so some of the replies can seem to be a bit short and grumpy, this isn't the usually the case mostly we are just busy and tire of answering similar questions. I don't know of anyone up your way with Marine, but there are a few of us in Wellington and we generaly love to show off our tanks, you just need to post asking or PM some of us. You will learn more in 15 minutes of looking at someones setup than a month of asking questions online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelifaxNZ Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Hi Poppy, Please don't get put off by the answers people are giving. I know it is brutally honest. When I first enquired at Hollywood Fish Farm, I got or I felt like they shot me down on a firing line! But I perservered and did A LOT OF READING on this subject. Online and in books. What helped me the most to understand the lingo and what I really needed was a book called "The New Marine Aquarium: Step-By-Step Setup & Stocking Guide" by Michael S Paletta. I based my tank on what was in the book, with some modifications. A lot of people on this forum have large tanks around your size and bigger, that's why it costs so much more as you need equipment that would cope with the amount of water you will have. To a certain extent the smaller the tank the cheaper, but in saying that, my 126 litre tank (including my sump) has cost me just over $2000.00. I have not bought the most expensive equipment, nor the cheapest. The most expensive equipment would be the lighting, then the protein skimmer then the pumps (yes "Pumps" plural). I highly recommend getting the book above. I think it is a great starter for beginners, then after reading, go to the different forums and do searches on how to begin a new marine tank. Amazon has this book at a good price. That's where I got it from... http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1890087521/102-2774091-8439304?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155 Good luck and just take it slow, one step at a time, and get the tank done right the FIRST TIME. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feelers Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Man that books super cheap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 thats coz it is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie extreme Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 In other words, buy a book and dont ask dumb questions here? if you don't like the advise/answers you are getting.... yes!!!! it becomes quite frustrating if beginners have no (thats none) knowledge whatsoever regarding marines and ask very simple questions that a book would cover all in one go (and most of the time this book is written by someone who knows). the advise aims also at beginners in most cases. where here on the forum you will get more in depth/conflicting advise that seem more useful to someone that allready has a little bit of info/knowledge (i.e. salinity, KH, nitrogen cycle etc). none of any of the advise is meant negative or rude even if it comes accross that way. we all like to help some more some less, but help nevertheless. have fun with that new hobby of yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelifaxNZ Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Gee, you are an Extremely tough Cookie! :lol: :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tel Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 thats the reason i never reply to any off these questions because you look bad in the end being such an honest truthful reefer in giving them a straight answer. this would have to be one comment that rings true & really loudly to me. im new to salt and would say the advice others have given seems really spot on and designed to save you heaps of grief if you heed it.i cant see how anything said could be taken in any other than a helpful way. if you have kept freshwater before it will help a little. i read all the threads about peoples setups and have personally seen alot of the auckland reefers setups. this served to open my eyes to what is needed in terms of equipment and likely cost.(may not be so easy where you are situated) good luck and try not to be so sensitive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Ok, I think we have all got our individual points across. Without scaring poppy away, let her just ask questions without going on and on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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