My tank setup

[hazymranch]

My tank is coming together and I can use some sage advice.

First of all, thanks to all of you who have been very helpful to me in my rapid education in marine aquarium keeping. Aside from a couple of books I have read (Fenner's have been the best) this site has been my main source of information as well as inspiration. That said, this is my first go at marine tanks and I would like to start with some hardy fish and coral and expand as my experience grows.

Now, I am on the cusp of putting all of the planning I have done into action and I would like some advice before I go too far. The following is a picture of the sump I designed and built. It is extremely simple, especially by your standards, but I was very limited by the space available under the stand. The dimensions are 500mm (L) X 300mm (W) X 420mm (H). The tank itself is 740 (L) X 390 (W) X 450 (H).

If the 4 chambers were labelled, from left to right would be 1, 2a (bottom), 2b (top), and 3. 1 will be the main inflow and will have 25mm PVC capped and cut as a spray bar as the main input draining down from a weir that I made of acrylic based on Melev's Reef design. Also draining into 1 will be a 15mm PVC uncapped. The dividers are cut so that the water will flow from 1 into 2a, then to 2b, which will house the eheim 1060 I bought from Chimera (thanks again J).

This picture is an older one and I have replaced the 15mm input on the far left with 25mm based on the 20mm that will carry the outflow from the return pump. The notch in the 1/2a divider will prevent the flow from going directly from 1 to 2b. As you can see, the 15mm is split and also runs directly into an overflow in 3, which will be the refugium. Water will overflow (slowly as regulated by the small diameter pipe and the ball valve) from 3 into 2 and also be pumped out.

So, my present plan was to have particulate filtration and skimming happen in 1. I was originally planning filter floss for 1, but I have been reading that none of you use it regularly and it might be a nitrate trap so I am open to suggestions as to what I shoudl have in there.

In 2a I planned to put some live rock rubble, ceramic cylinders, and calcified bio balls, all of which have been up and running in an established tank and well populated with nitrifying bacteria. The return pump fits perfectly into 2b and I have fitted it with 20mm PVC with a ball valve into 20mm flexible tubing. This will be split with a 20mm T at the top of the tank and run with 20mm PVC to the right side of the tank, then drop to the bottom where I have capped and drilled a spray bar to span the bottom of the tank to prevent dead spots (pics to come...hopefully tomorrow). The other side of the T will reduce to 15mm and return into the top to create some flow.

In 3 I plan to have a small refugium with the heater, lsubstrate from an established tank, and live rock with some macro algae (caleurpa?). teh water will flow into the overflow in the corner, which will be filled with live rock rubble. Any suggestions you have here would also be welcome.

Above the tank there is an existing wet/dry trickle filter currently running 2 chambers each with a poly filter pad above ceramic noodles and bio balls (the kind that look like cocoa puffs breakfast cereal). My plan for this is to fill these chambers with some sort of chemical filtration, like carbon or ammo lock, or phospho rid. Suggestions here will be greatly appreciated.

That's it for now. After I get the flow up and running to kickstart the cycling (it has been running without a sump, curing the live rock for 4-5 weeks with an army of power heads and an established biofilter) I will be building the lighting hood, which will bring me back for a whole host of other questions. I'm collecting some NSW and will be making up the rest with ASW.

[cracker]

howdy....

sounds good.

my suggestion would be to only use the coral rubble in the small compartment and the caulerpa area. larger coral rocks are better if possible as they can be cleaned easier.

you dont need ammo lock, waste of dosh.

you dont need filter wool or bioballs or noodles.

waste of money and nitrate producers.

in the other small compartment you could run phosohate reducing media and carbon.

I wouldnt use anything else on the whole system except the LR in the display.

thats it!!

[hazymranch]

Thanks Cracker. To clarify, to which "small compartment" are you recommending the coral rubble (aside from the 'fuge inlet)? 2a, which is in the center, in front of the return pump, or one of the compartments suspended above the tank?

[chimera]

That said, this is my first go at marine tanks and I would like to start with some hardy fish and coral and expand as my experience grows

that is the smartest thing I've read on this site thus far.

you dont need ammo lock, waste of dosh.

you dont need filter wool or bioballs or noodles.

waste of money and nitrate producers.

very true, however a bit of filter wool every now and then wont hurt and can help physically strip out detritus. used long term is not recommended.

[hazymranch]

Thanks James. Call me crazy, but it makes me feel bad when things in my care die.

I will plan to use filter wool periodically when I see detritus floating around but otherwise keep that chamber clear for skimming. Here is a pic I took last night with the rubble in place. I know the skimmer is 3rd rate, but I got it for next to nothing and it is better than not having anything at all until I can afford a quality skimmer.

Here is the spray bar across the bottom.

Here are the weirs hung onto the back. The second (smaller) one came out much better after I had made all the mistakes on the first. Bending acrylic with a plumber's torch is not as easy as Melev made it sound:

They actually work and hooking the stopcocks up top to a venturi automatically primes them if any air were to get into the "u".

The bit across the top is the wet/dry trickle filter where I will put the carbon and phosphate eliminator.

[wasp]

That's a great set up you've obviously put a tremendous amount of thought into it!

One thing should be changed though ( I know you'll hate me ) The rubble is too small a size to allow anearobic bacteria to operate within it. This means you will not get nitrate reduction and will have too much nitrate in your tank. Be better to replace it with large chunks of rock.

The kind of set up with rubble in it was popular a few years ago as it does provide excellent ammonia and nitrite reduction, but in order to keep some of the more picky corals that are kept these days, and for that matter, keep the easy ones healthier, swap out the rubble for larger rocks.

[chimera]

looks great, get the carbon in their asap to start cleansing ya water

[Pies]

Good job on the DIY weirs. I am impressed. Love to see some more pics.

Pie

[cracker]

That's a great set up you've obviously put a tremendous amount of thought into it!

One thing should be changed though ( I know you'll hate me ) The rubble is too small a size to allow anearobic bacteria to operate within it. This means you will not get nitrate reduction and will have too much nitrate in your tank. Be better to replace it with large chunks of rock.

The kind of set up with rubble in it was popular a few years ago as it does provide excellent ammonia and nitrite reduction, but in order to keep some of the more picky corals that are kept these days, and for that matter, keep the easy ones healthier, swap out the rubble for larger rocks.

it wont be a problem though if he has large pieces in the display area.

[hazymranch]

Phew! I'm feeling pretty good after reading your comments. That, and I plugged the whole system in this weekend and IT WORKS!!

Some minor adjustments I will need to make:

The return pump is not as grunty as I anticipated and I get only trickle flow from the 15mm return up top and no appreciable flow from the 20mm spray bar on the bottom, certainly not enough to create a current along the bottom. So, not wanting to get a new pump already (my very understanding wife has informed me I am getting near by budgetary ceiling) I am going to scrap all of the 20mm pipe and re-plumb the return with 15mm PVC, drilling smaller holes for the spray bar. If that doesn't increase the pressure and thus flow, I will be in the market for a bigger pump and will have an eheim 1060 for sale.

I also tested a mock power outage and realized that the return creates a very nice siphon once turned off so the main tank will drain into the sump until the water level gets to the top return level. Easly enough, I drilled a siphon break in the 20mm return...which was now pointless since I will be replacing it all with 15mm :oops:

The weir combs are slightly different heights and the 15mm weir, being lower, bears the brunt of the overflow volume, greatly underutilizing the 25mm overflow. So, I will have to cut the 25mm weir teeth deeper.

I aquascaped my live rock wall and I don't think the size of the rubble will be a problem as I have a hell of alot of rock in there now. I promise pics tomorrow. I also managed to get the letters of my son's name that I made out of glass pipets and paua chips in there, making my wife very happy (she's a big Deuce Bigalow fan).

One problem I am still having is how to increase flow without piling power heads into the tank. I am trying to convince my wife that putting an eheim cannister filter in will increase flow and water quality, but she's having some issues getting past the price tag.

The carbon went in after I hooke it all up and the water is crystal clear.

I also found a great source for NSW on the peninsula and it tested negative for any phosphates or nitrogenous waste with good pH, KH, and Ca values. That will make my life much easier, especially with my nano. (I'll get pics of that up too).

[Ira]

If that doesn't increase the pressure and thus flow, I will be in the market for a bigger pump and will have an eheim 1060 for sale.

Increasing backpressure will NOT increase your flow. Higher pressure would equal higher velocity, but if your pump is running practically at its limit as far as head you may get a slight increase in velocity out of the spray bar holes but you'll end up with a huge decrease in flow. Only way you're going to get more flow is bigger holes(=lower velocity out of the holes), a bigger pump or a second pump.

[suphew]

Whatever you do dont go down in plumbing size! This will just make things worse. Your 1060 should be fine, I use the same, the top of my tank is over my head so about 2m the actual outlet in the tank would be 1.5-1.7 meters above the pump. I think you problem is that you are just trying to do too many things with it, every foot of plumbing, bend, join, tap, tee, etc etc slows the flow down more.

An eheim cannister will make bugger all difference to your flow, depending on the model they are only rated to like 700lph and this is if you have no media no pipes etc, you want to be looking at 1000's of LPH. Also if you want to add a cannister for phos-sorb etc why not get a cheaper one, I use a fluval 204, I ran two of them them on my fresh water tank for a couple of years, and one has now been running on my marine for almost a year, I have never needed to replace a part or haad any problems. You can pick them up for under $100 off trademe, and anyway because you using it to hold chemical media, it doesn't really matter if its off for a few days like it would if it was a bio filter.

However I would be looking at a fluidized filter, I have just ordered one from oceanworkz (or whatever they are called) cost me about $150 landed for the larger size.

[chimera]

as per ira and sephew's comments, the eheim 1060 i sold you is more than capable. the 1060 is 25mm (1") in and 20mm (3/4") out. if you are using 15mm out, then this will reduce flow considerably. change the plumbing out to 20mm all the way and dont restrict it. bends wont decrease flow that much (not as much as you'd think) but do keep them to a minimum. if it were me i would have the return plumbed back up and over the top of the display tank creating circulation at the waters surface. then drill a hole at the back of the tank, add a bulkhead to it and have a separate pump for the spray bar underneath on a closed loop.

[hazymranch]

Thanks Ira. I think I have been confusing velocity with flow. I wanted to increase the velocity out of the spray bar to prevent detritus from settling, but it sounds like I would be doing so at the expense of flow, which I don't want.

Suphew - I didn't take all of the plumbing required to get the water over the top of the tank (elbows, tees, etc.) into my head calculations and that may be the problem. The 1060 is rated at 2200+ lph with a 3.1m head so it should be up to the task, but with all of the bends and tees, I am probably pushing that limit. I may have to just grin a bear it and put a few power heads in there to create current. There is a lot of rock in there and I may be able to place them carefully enough to make them less obtrusive.

What is a fluidized filter?

[chimera]

let me know how many bends etc you have, the total head height and i'll let you know the exact flow.

a fluidised filter is one that keeps the media within it under constant movement (not too low that some of the media settles on the bottom and not to high that the media gets pumped out the outlet!!!)

[chimera]

...and dont forget head is taken from the water surface of your sump to the water surface of your display tank, not from the pump to the display tank water surface. my sump is downstairs at my house; head height of just over 3 metres. for me a 1060 would be only pumping 100lph at that height!

[hazymranch]

as per ira and sephew's comments, the eheim 1060 i sold you is more than capable. the 1060 is 25mm (1") in and 20mm (3/4") out. if you are using 15mm out, then this will reduce flow considerably. change the plumbing out to 20mm all the way and dont restrict it. bends wont decrease flow that much (not as much as you'd think) but do keep them to a minimum. if it were me i would have the return plumbed back up and over the top of the display tank creating circulation at the waters surface. then drill a hole at the back of the tank, add a bulkhead to it and have a separate pump for the spray bar underneath on a closed loop.

Thanks James. I have 20mm running out of the pump and will not change it to 15mm as I was considering, thanks to Ira and Suphew. I also have the return going up and over the top of the tank to circulate the surface (really just below the surface) but the idea of having the spray bar on another pump on a closed loop isn't a bad idea at all. However, none of the glass companies in Dunners will touch an assembled tank for drilling, which is why I went to the melev weir rather than the durso standpipe. I will have to wait a while for that as my wife put her foot down this weekend when I explained to her what a closed loop was an why we needed another pump. :oops: If I have to choose between a cannister or fluidized filter and another pump, I'm not sure what I shoudl opt for. I am leaning toward a closed loop as my filtration isn't too bad at the moment.

[chimera]

the good thing about a closed loop is it's always 0 head. so, the pump spec you choose you can just with the advertised flow rate!

if you want to work out flow rate of your return with the 1060, go here:

http://www.reefs.org/library/pumps/waterpipe-v1.xls

[cracker]

the good thing about a closed loop is it's always 0 head. so, the pump spec you choose you can just with the advertised flow rate!

if you want to work out flow rate of your return with the 1060, go here:

A closed loop is for current movement, so it is no different to a powerhead or stream...they all have zero head!

[chimera]

in some scenarios a closed loop is preferred - such as less heat, more stealthed install, better waterflow in hard to reach places (sounds like a toothbrush ad) such as under rocks etc

[hazymranch]

The easiest solution would be to use several powerheads, but that would also get very cluttered. The downside of a closed loop would be where to fit all of the plumbing. Here are some updated pics so you know what I'm talking about:

Here is the top view showing both weirs and return plumbing. The pvc on the right is 20mm and drops down to the spray bar on the bottom. The one on the left is 15mm and returns to the surface. They both run just below the weirs.

This is the left side with the 25mm weir and surface return:

Right side with 15mm weir and spray bar return:

Here is the whole setup. This is what I meant about having enough live rock:

Closeup of sump. The light is 6400K Budget Brand from Pak N Save, 300W heater, 20mm plumbing return, 15mm to refugium, 25mm as well as 15mm to main inflow:

Day lit ( I need to get the backing sorted), dawn/dusk lit, angle view of whole cabinet:

I also revamped my 34L to get some more room, another power head, and lost the artificial deco to make way for the real thing:

[chimera]

The downside of a closed loop would be where to fit all of the plumbing.

like mine? :lol:

The light is 6400K Budget Brand from Pak N Save

The perfect Kelvin rating for unwanted algae growth. I would change this to at least 10k when you get a chance.

[hazymranch]

like mine?

Yep. Just like yours, except without holes drilled in the tank or space in the stand, or a room behind the tank.

The perfect Kelvin rating for unwanted algae growth. I would change this to at least 10k when you get a chance.

Would the algae be unwanted even in the 'fuge? Are 10,000K bayonet bulbs even available?

By the way, and I am embarrassed to even tell you this, but I solved my flow problem. It seems that all I had to do was move the pump inlet away from the glass that was obstructing the flow :oops: :oops: :oops: Now I am very happy to have the 25mm plumbing on the main weir.

[Fay]

Very nicely presented job well done!!

[cracker]

Bloody hell chim.....spaghetti junction!!!

luckily with my tank 800mm wide my streams are quite well hidden.

I dont need no.....da da daaaaa, spaghetti junctiooon!!

(Rolling stones)