emptying tankout

[lduncan]

To be fair, before accusing Pies of ridicule, please bear in mind he was responding TO ridicule, in the same vane.

??? He wasn't responding to ridicule at all.

[wasp]

Maybe you forgot. Pies got needled a few days ago about the "state of his rock", plus a few other unnessecary put downs.

Then he sees you talking about sandbed crap etc, and appears to go off the deep end. But looking at the whole picture I can see where he is coming from.

Mostly it will take two to tango.

[lduncan]

I've stated what sand beds do. The "state of his (Pies) rock" is consistent with what I have read from numerous researchers/scientists, with regard to sand beds.

If you want to construe that as ridicule, that's you're interpretation. But in reality, it's just a normal deep sand bed at work.

Layton

[Pies]

Depends what you're more interested in keeping, coral and fish, or sand crap and associated critters.

Its this comments like this that infurate me, stated like its a fact, when its complete nosense. How do I know its nonsence? My own tank is one of hundreds/thousands that disprove it. Opnions are fine, opnions stated as fact are misleading to readers who assume, by Laytons 'matter of fact' statements thats he's right, when in this case its completely wrong.

As for riducle, I give as good as I get. I don't think Layton takes too much offence to it, like I don't take offence when he says things like 'thats rubbish'.

Now to clear the air, just so people can understand where I am at. First off the bomber fanboy tank system. There is no doubt, from what i've read and seen that this system works. Without going into details the big problem is that it looks (note this is my opnion, not a fact) horrid. Now if you like the BB look, follow bombers system, its a recepe for success.

Now here is the tricky bit, the bit I think Layton (and maybee Joeblog) has missed. Just because the bomber system works, doesn't mean other systems don't work.

DSB. Bomber and his fanboys fear the DSB will crash and mass death will follow. This is disclaimed by the fact you won't know when it happens, just that if you tank ever shows some algae, RTN or any other problems its the DSB thats doing it. As for hundreds of scientiests proving it, I think thats a bit of a stretch. Vernon, Jaubert have done studies on DSBs with and without plenums. Showing that the nutrients, p04 etc change over time, but no evidence of complete saturation buildup over time. As for metal eating bacterria, I have no idea or opnion.

DSB part 2. About 18 months ago people tried putting taps under their plenums to drain out all the evils. Note this didn't hit the mainstream. Why? Not as much evil stuff in the sandbed as some would leave you to belive.

The RISKS of DSB. The risks exist, a DSB can crash. The theory that I perscribe too is a common one, use a hybrid. The DSB doesn't do all the work in my tank, just some of it. The rock does some, the skimmer does some, water changes do some, phosphate resun does some, heavy lighting does some, macro algae does some and aggressive water movement does some.

Much like comments last week about my plumbing wearing out because of insufficient calculations in water flow, there is a time for theoritical principles and their actual application in the real world.

Would I reccomend someone use a DSB? Probably not, you need to understand them before you use them. Does it work for me? Honestly I don't know, I certainly hope it does more good then bad.

Gezzz what was my point? Ohhh yeah, BB bomber tank system will work, but its not the only system for SPS dominated tanks. A DSB is not a timebomb, or no more of a timebomb than anything else if you understand the husbandry required to effectly use one. Should you use one? Up to you. Should you continuously bombard people with why its wrong because it different to the way your going to setup your own tank? I think not.

Pieman

[lduncan]

Its this comments like this that infurate me, stated like its a fact, when its complete nosense. How do I know its nonsence? My own tank is one of hundreds/thousands that disprove it. Opnions are fine, opnions stated as fact are misleading to readers who assume, by Laytons 'matter of fact' statements thats he's right, when in this case its completely wrong.

The conditions required for a sand bed to operate, are the same conditions which are responsible for killing animals which predominately come from the reef crest (mainly SPS).

Also, a DSB can be a significant consumer of carbon in a tank, and in effect becomes just another animal in the tank.

That's what motivated that statement. It's not complete crap at all.

As for riducle, I give as good as I get. I don't think Layton takes too much offence to it, like I don't take offence when he says things like 'thats rubbish'.

Nope, I don't care if you rubbish my ideas or other peoples research (just be prepared to back up you're position, I don't let people off lightly ), i'll draw the line at personal attacks though.

Now here is the tricky bit, the bit I think Layton (and maybee Joeblog) has missed. Just because the bomber system works, doesn't mean other systems don't work.

I've got no argument with that. The issues isn't whether they work or not, it's how they work.

DSB. Bomber and his fanboys fear the DSB will crash and mass death will follow. This is disclaimed by the fact you won't know when it happens, just that if you tank ever shows some algae, RTN or any other problems its the DSB thats doing it.

People take the word "crash" too literally, it's not here today gone the next, it's a progression of eutrophication. Algae is the sign of this. And yes for some coral this does result in death. The nutrients absorbed into the rock is also absorbed into live coral skeletons, SPS in particular. Boring algaes can attack the coral from the inside out killing it. The can be seen as STN or RTN in corals.

As for hundreds of scientiests proving it, I think thats a bit of a stretch.

There was a quick count up on one thread. 200 different authors, well over 600 references, so that was a literal statement.

Vernon, Jaubert have done studies on DSBs with and without plenums. Showing that the nutrients, p04 etc change over time, but no evidence of complete saturation buildup over time. As for metal eating bacterria, I have no idea or opnion.

It doesn't have to saturate to cause problems.

The RISKS of DSB. The risks exist, a DSB can crash. The theory that I perscribe too is a common one, use a hybrid. The DSB doesn't do all the work in my tank, just some of it. The rock does some, the skimmer does some, water changes do some, phosphate resun does some, heavy lighting does some, macro algae does some and aggressive water movement does some.

That doesn't change the fact that the bed is accumulating phosphate.

Much like comments last week about my plumbing wearing out because of insufficient calculations in water flow, there is a time for theoritical principles and their actual application in the real world.

Difference being that peoples sand beds do "crash" and they end up having to use phosphate removers as a band aid to try and mitigate the effects, they have algae problems which do not occur in a cleaner system, and they have corals die from STN and RTN.

Should you continuously bombard people with why its wrong because it different to the way your going to setup your own tank? I think not.

I'm not saying it's wrong, just explaining how they actually work. It's up to the individual to decide. If you know how things work you're in a position to make a better decision.

Layton

[lduncan]

Wow, i didn't realise how long that post was. :lol:

[chimera]

if everyone keeps quoting their quoted comments that were quoted from a previous post (does that make sense?) and essentially arguing about something so pointless its not funny (re-read what you've all posted, it's going nowhere) then cees is going to run out of disk space and the whole Internet will crash

[Ira]

*Clicks stop watching this topic*

[wasp]

ok started closing my marine down upgrade for me to [cleaner tank]

whats the best way with my LR to clean it all. very green

have given about 10 pieces a soft waterblast but not as white as i wanted it still see the green but alot better.

any ideas????

That was the first post.

I think Slappers has learned more than he ever wanted to :lol:

[slappers]

yes thanks for all the replys it has been very interesting.i will leave it at that has i dont want to start world war 3 :lol:

[wasp]

Bomber and his fanboys.

Have to laugh that is quite funny! Bomber does seem to have a collection of devoted fans / clones / adoring multitudes :lol: :lol:

.

[lduncan]

There is no forum Barebottom.com yet... Oh wait. nope just checked, that is negative.

[wasp]

Good thought

bombers bare bottom.com

Where the leader speaks, and the people go

:lol:

[chimera]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

i could just see it now... damn, get that picture out of my head! ha ha haaaa!!! classic.