wasp Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Anything rather than say what your point is. What is it? Do you have one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misnoma Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 And the answers are? I thought he was asking you a question? or are you a polititian? Or playing Jepoardy? This is all too confusing for me, I'm off to drain my tank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 What are the answers these questions wasp? Why do corals show signs of colouring up despite indicators that the tank is still high nutrients? Why is tissue loss, which sometimes occurs, due to a fast reduction in nutrients? When clearly the rate at which particular nutrients are dropped is much much slower that what occurs when you perform a water change. Any evidence for this being the case? Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Again, I'm happy to answer. However I know you well enough to know that this will not end the argument. How do I know that? Because I have already answered both those questions for you in previous threads when you asked them already. But you took no notice, just continued argueing. So again, if you are trying to make some point, please say what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Like I said, humour me. I don't recall you answering those questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Not surprised, I doubt you even read my answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Actually I'm going to wrap this up as I've asked you many times what your point is and you will not answer. So it has been a completely unintelligent discussion, you obviously have no point. There are some people on this board who have healthy, nice looking tanks, with nice, colourful coral. Then there is other person who has a not so healthy tank with coral suffering from tissue death and looking like crap, and rock that had to be removed to be treated for excess nutrients. Sorry but bottom line is I'm only going to take advice from person with nice tank. Regardless of how persistant the other person is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Actually I'm going to wrap this up as I've asked you many times what your point is and you will not answer. So it has been a completely unintelligent discussion, you obviously have no point. There are some people on this board who have healthy, nice looking tanks, with nice, colourful coral. Then there is other person who has a not so healthy tank with coral suffering from tissue death and looking like crap, and rock that had to be removed to be treated for excess nutrients. Sorry but bottom line is I'm only going to take advice from person with nice tank. Regardless of how persistant the other person is. So now that you've had time to cool down, can you answer those two questions, and i'll continue stepping through how and why the iron theory came about? Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feelers Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Hahaa, never a dull moment , its always touch and go at fnzas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 I am feeling a strong urge to fly down to Christchurch and perform a full lobotomy on Layton. Only trouble then he would probably be smarter, and capable of really causing some grief. :lol: :lol: Thanks Cookie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 What are the answers these questions wasp? Why do corals show signs of colouring up despite indicators that the tank is still high nutrients? Why is tissue loss, which sometimes occurs, due to a fast reduction in nutrients? When clearly the rate at which particular nutrients are dropped is much much slower that what occurs when you perform a water change. Any evidence for this being the case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 get together have a fight violence solves everything (please note im being sarcastic although if you did have a fight could you video tape it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Nah! It was just a joke But really this is a pointless argument, as said before I'm wrapping it up, at least until Layton finds out what his point is. So Layton - try to smile, and bro, keep learning! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Sorry but bottom line is I'm only going to take advice from person with nice tank. Regardless of how persistant the other person is. I find it hard not to agree with this myself. I've been told my tank is a timebomb, DSBs don't work and coral colour in my own tank only comes from phosphate resin (because it leechs iron or is a 'band aid' for my poor sandbed technology). But i've not seen pics or evidence of Laytons tank (cept the time he posted a pic of someone elses tank) to show why his theorys are right. Just non-stop digs at Zeovit, hints about why its bad and links straight from google referencing information that doesn't appear to be relivent. Also i've never seen Layton once admit his is wrong, or may have more to learn. Argue a 'point' for 20 pages, sure. Layton I am keen to learn, and I am sure you have a lot of good information to share, but how about trying to meet us half way. Also take some photos of your progress no matter how good/bad it is. This would go a long way to building some credibility. Now i'm not hunting great colour at the expense of everything else. But I am hunting a healthy tank with good growth and long term sustainability, coral colour is important, but so is low maintenance. My last post in this thread. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Nah! It was just a joke But really this is a pointless argument, as said before I'm wrapping it up, at least until Layton finds out what his point is. So Layton - try to smile, and bro, keep learning! Cheers Try searching for info on iron in marine environments. This has been a significant research topic in the 1990's. Especially in the Caribbean, with the decline of the reefs there. If you answer the question, i'll continue explaining. Just to recap what we know: 1. Iron addition can result in loss of zooxanthellae from coral tissue. 2. Iron does not kill zooxanthellae. 3. The zeolite used in zeovit contains iron. 4. Loss of zooxanthellae can result in coral colours becoming more pronounced. 5. Iron bioavailability is independent of dissolved iron levels. 6. Iron acts as a fertiliser to phyto and bacteria. So with that in mind, what is a possible answer to the questions above? How does this relate to the observations of the initial stages of using zeovit? IE, corals colouring up BEFORE nitrate and phosphate are noticeably reduced. Occasional TN occurances. How does it relate to the other observations that using zeovit (over time) lowers nitrate and phosphate? Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie extreme Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Quote: Sorry but bottom line is I'm only going to take advice from person with nice tank. Regardless of how persistant the other person is. I find it hard not to agree with this myself. I've been told my tank is a timebomb, DSBs don't work and coral colour in my own tank only comes from phosphate resin (because it leechs iron or is a 'band aid' for my poor sandbed technology). But i've not seen pics or evidence of Laytons tank (cept the time he posted a pic of someone elses tank) to show why his theorys are right. Just non-stop digs at Zeovit, hints about why its bad and links straight from google referencing information that doesn't appear to be relivent. Also i've never seen Layton once admit his is wrong, or may have more to learn. Argue a 'point' for 20 pages, sure. Layton I am keen to learn, and I am sure you have a lot of good information to share, but how about trying to meet us half way. Also take some photos of your progress no matter how good/bad it is. This would go a long way to building some credibility. Now i'm not hunting great colour at the expense of everything else. But I am hunting a healthy tank with good growth and long term sustainability, coral colour is important, but so is low maintenance. very true. wasp how much is an airline ticket return to CHCH? will start a collection fund. sales from the video footage will make us rich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 11, 2005 Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 Ok. So here's what I think. One of the most noticeable observations when first starting to use zeovit is the increased skimmate. This could be caused by a number of different things. Essentially it comes down to the fact that there is more stuff in the water in a form which is easier to skim. So this could come from bacterial and phyto blooms, from adding zeofood, or zeostart, or from iron entering the system from abrasion, chemical disassociation, or bacterial action on the zeolite. An interesting thing to note is that many bacteria have developed methods to make iron bioavailable. They produce a class of compounds call siderophores. These are organic chelators which sequester iron and make it bioavailable. They are polar molecules, and as such are good candidates for skimming. Probably the second most noticeable thing is increased water clarity. This could be due to abrasions of aluminium sulfate from the zeolite acting as a flocculant. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetskisteve Posted October 11, 2005 Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 probably, could be, ??????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 11, 2005 Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 ... DSBs don't work... You weren't listening to what I was saying. To me it looks like your DSB is doing exactly what the hundreds of papers say they do, and that's why you need phosphate remover to soak up water borne phosphate. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fay Posted October 11, 2005 Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 I thought this thread was about salt mix I didn't Know zeovit was a salt mix, oh I didn't know iron was a salt mix, oh I didn't know dsb was a salt mix GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE I am learning something every day. Anyway I'm sorry I can't add anything about saltmix because I use NSW. I used to use ASW but found it is much cheaper from 3km down the road. And its not such a pain to make Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 12, 2005 Report Share Posted October 12, 2005 After a few weeks of using zeovit, people usually notice changes in the colours of corals, without any noticable change in phosphate or nitrate levels. This could be due to iron causing zooxanthellae to leave, or be push out of the coral tissues. So zooxanthellae densities are reduced, allowing underlying colours of flourescing protiens to become apparent. It's around this time that people occasionally notice tissue recession. Possibly from bacterial related problems after iron addition, or boring algae within to coral skeleton, increased by additional iron. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetskisteve Posted October 12, 2005 Report Share Posted October 12, 2005 could be....again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 12, 2005 Report Share Posted October 12, 2005 Perhaps you need a definition of theory Steve: A supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained. That's why I use "could". Because it is a plausible explanation. How about others post their reasoning for those observations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetskisteve Posted October 12, 2005 Report Share Posted October 12, 2005 how about NOT start a thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 12, 2005 Report Share Posted October 12, 2005 Why do people get so defensive about zeovit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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