salt mix

[tel]

very very interesting..................i dont know if i like the red capital script or the new green bouncing emoticons best.................. :lol: trust wasp to be the first to slip one into this thread. :lol:

[lduncan]

I see. So, according to you,

Too many zoos = low calcificatio / stunted growth

Too many zoos = brown coral

Logically therefore -

Brown coral = bad, no? :bounce:

Nope. According to Marubini and Davies increased zoox populations resulted in a decrease in calcification. I had nothing to do with the study.

I'd like to see where you found that iron increased growth rates, because in all my searching for info on iron and corals, I never once come across anything which suggested that, it was always the opposite. And you know, because I'm obsessed with iron, i've read a wide variety of stuff from African dust to bacterial iron sources.

And the second half: too many zoos = brown coral = bad is your "logical" conclusion not mine.

Layton

[wasp]

We have established you are obsessed with iron. But to enable sensible debate, you must tell us what your theory is.

If you refuse to tell us your point, no point you bringing this iron thing up all the time. After all, you did say

if you want to debate something, at least have a valid point

Layton

[wasp]

Nope. According to Marubini and Davies increased zoox populations resulted in a decrease in calcification. I had nothing to do with the study.

Layton

Layton you presented their research, it is obvious to everybody who read it you were pushing their viewpoint. The conclusion I drew was yours, because it was a logical conclusion based on data you presented yourself.

If you do not believe your own data that you present, I'd suggest to you not presenting it in the first place.

Stop fudging and beating around the bush. Tell us your theory, if you even have one any more.

[lduncan]

Layton you presented their research, it is obvious to everybody who read it you were pushing their viewpoint. The conclusion I drew was yours, because it was a logical conclusion based on data you presented yourself.

If you do not believe your own data that you present, I'd suggest to you not presenting it in the first place.

??? Umm, what are you on about? I trust their research.

YOU drew the conclusion (based on flawed logic) that too many zoo = brown = bad, NOT me.

So saying that I'm equating brown corals with bad is completely false.

How about you try and spot the flaw in your logic.

Layton

[wasp]

The logic was, well, logical. to say otherwise would be, well, illogical :lol: :lol: .

But this is all a sideshow. As you have stated, before somebody debates something,they should at least have a valid point.

So-

Please explain your iron theory, in plain, unfudged, English, so a common man like me can know what you are on about. You had me thinking you were saying the iron was killing zoos, because you never say what you are getting at in plain english.

So please take your own advice and do so now.

[lduncan]

Is this coral "bad"? If so, why? Can you spot the flaw yet?

[lduncan]

You had me thinking you were saying the iron was killing zoos, because you never say what you are getting at in plain english.

I'm trying my best to be patient here. I really don't know if you're being serious or not.

Is this not in plain english?

"Elevated iron levels can cause corals to bleach."

I don't think i can break that down to anything more simple.

Layton

[wasp]

"Elevated iron levels can cause corals to bleach".

That's it? Your entire theory?

Nothing else to it?

[wasp]

Is this coral "bad"? If so, why? Can you spot the flaw yet?

This is a typical example of you "hint dropping", never getting to the point.

What is your point? Just say it.

[Pies]

It looks OK to me, cept it looks like its broken off and has fallen to the floor.

Pie

[lduncan]

This is a typical example of you "hint dropping", never getting to the point.

What is your point? Just say it.

Is the coral pictured "bad" because it is brown? Can you see the flaw in your "logical" conclusion yet?

Layton

[lduncan]

"Elevated iron levels can cause corals to bleach".

That's it? Your entire theory?

Nothing else to it?

So what I said WAS in plain English after all. You just twisted it around to this:

I'm still waiting for you to produce a paper that proves your theory, that the water in a zeovit tank is so high in iron that it kills the zooxanthellae.

You haven't even read the abstract of the paper, and are over dramatising things.

[chimera]

"Elevated iron levels can cause corals to bleach".

That's it? Your entire theory?

Nothing else to it?

So what I said WAS in plain English after all. You just twisted it around

so that is your theory. ok, so are you now saying that zeovit causes "elevated" iron levels or are you saying it just does dose some iron? if you are taking the facts from the test performed in 1998, then as far as i can see you are stating that the iron levels from dosing zeovit are "elevated". so would the large levels of iron that come from ASW be called "elevated" also? (serious question)

[wasp]

"Elevated iron levels can cause corals to bleach".

That's it? Your entire theory?

Nothing else to it?

Again, please answer.

1. Is that your theory?

2. Is there nothing else to it?

Be great if you could give a straight up, unfudged, plain English answer to Chimeras question also.

[lduncan]

Hold your horses wasp. My answers are always in plain English.

so that is your theory.

It is one component, yes.

ok, so are you now saying that zeovit causes "elevated" iron levels or are you saying it just does dose some iron? if you are taking the facts from the test performed in 1998, then as far as i can see you are stating that the iron levels from dosing zeovit are "elevated".

The zeolite used, clearly has significant iron contamination in it. One way or another it will find it's way into the system, whether through chemical disassociation, abrasion, or bacteria processes. The point is iron is a fertiliser from the point of view of algae and bacteria. The reasons and triggers as to why zooxanthellae leave the tissue (or are pushed out) are not well understood (although there is a possible, unverified, model).

so would the large levels of iron that come from ASW be called "elevated" also? (serious question)

Have you heard of people having massive coral bleaching when changing salt brands? Maybe trace metals (transition ones in general, not just iron necessarily) play a role in that?

Layton

[lduncan]

So have you spotted the flaw in you "logical" conclusion yet? What is it?

And can you answer these questions wasp?

Why do corals show signs of colouring up despite indicators that the tank is still high nutrients?

Why is tissue loss, which sometimes occurs, due to a fast reduction in nutrients? When clearly the rate at which particular nutrients are dropped is much much slower that what occurs when you perform a water change. Any evidence for this being the case?

Layton

[Pies]

Ummmm what was wrong with the coral picture? Was that it was brown? If so doesn't that just mean that its a brown coral? I've seen lots of brown corals in Zeovit tanks.

/me is confused.

Pie

[wasp]

iron is a fertiliser from the point of view of algae and bacteria. The reasons and triggers as to why zooxanthellae leave the tissue (or are pushed out) are not well understood

Layton

See here is my problem with your always ambigious statements. In the above quote you seem to be hinting that iron causes zoo expulsion, and you have certainly hinted at that many times before.

But a few posts back you said I arrived at that conclusion by "twisting" what you say.

I am twisting nothing. Just trying to figure out what it is you ARE saying.

So how about a straight up answer.

What is your iron theory. Tell us the WHOLE THING in plain english.

Just a straight up answer. Then there will be nothing for me to "twist". Will there.

[chimera]

Have you heard of people having massive coral bleaching when changing salt brands?

no, the difference being a water change takes out what you're putting in. i've heard of bleaching and RTN when people overdose on all sorts trace elements though. so those that state they have had bleaching with zeovit, you sure they followed instructions? did they dose other things at the same time? did they follow the maintenance routine that goes with the dosing? probably not.

Maybe trace metals (transition ones in general, not just iron necessarily) play a role in that?

Maybe? Overdosing, or rather, elevating levels of almost anything that causes rapid changes to a reef tank is almost always detrimental to coral. Thats what i believe the issue is with those who have coral bleaching, they are likely to be either impatient and want change quicker than the zoox can adapt too or those that think they are scientific genius' and believe they know exactly what to dose themselves. RTFM.

[lduncan]

See here is my problem with your always ambigious statements. In the above quote you seem to be hinting that iron causes zoo expulsion, and you have certainly hinted at that many times before.

What is ambiguous about that? I wasn't hinting at anything. I've said unequivocally that according to Harland and Brown, iron CAN cause expulsion of zoox. They have shown that by experiment. What they don't fully understand is if/how the corals regulate them, or if/why the zoox themselves decide to leave. That doesn't change the fact that they measured a drop in zoox density with iron additions.

But a few posts back you said I arrived at that conclusion by "twisting" what you say.

I am twisting nothing.

You said iron kills zooxanthellae. I've never said that. So you are twisting it to be something it's not. Over dramatising.

Layton

[lduncan]

Ummmm what was wrong with the coral picture? Was that it was brown? If so doesn't that just mean that its a brown coral? I've seen lots of brown corals in Zeovit tanks.

/me is confused.

Pie

It's wasps logic don't you get it? Brown corals are bad.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the picture at all. I'm trying to get wasp to see why his "logical" conclusion, is actually not based in logic at all.

So do you get it yet wasp?

Layton

[lduncan]

no, the difference being a water change takes out what you're putting in.

Maybe I spend too much time on RC. You must have heard of the problems a lot of people where having with bleaching when they switched salt mixes? Maybe it was because the salt mix they were switching to had higher trace metal levels?

Maybe? Overdosing, or rather, elevating levels of almost anything that causes rapid changes to a reef tank is almost always detrimental to coral. Thats what i believe the issue is with those who have coral bleaching, they are likely to be either impatient and want change quicker than the zoox can adapt too or those that think they are scientific genius' and believe they know exactly what to dose themselves. RTFM.

So chuck some rocks of iron contaminated zeolite in your tank, how much control do you really have on how much or how quickly it is released?

Layton

[lduncan]

can you answer these questions wasp?

Why do corals show signs of colouring up despite indicators that the tank is still high nutrients?

Why is tissue loss, which sometimes occurs, due to a fast reduction in nutrients? When clearly the rate at which particular nutrients are dropped is much much slower that what occurs when you perform a water change. Any evidence for this being the case?

Layton

[chimera]

So chuck some rocks of iron contaminated zeolite in your tank, how much control do you really have on how much or how quickly it is released?

well we all agree that large levels of iron can cause unwanted algae growth since it acts as a fertiliser, but on the same hand at the right levels it can bring out colours in corals. so the idea is largely to get a balance right? how do you know zeovit zeolite is not tested for a maximum 'leach factor?'

layton, what im confused at is you've said testing for levels of iron is not going to tell you much because of the iron uptake by animals, bacteria etc,... but thats after you quote habib and others testing zeovit and stating these "elevated" iron levels as "facts". these "facts" contradict your iron testing theory. if an iron test is performed, surely thats going to give a good "rough" indication of iron levels in zeovit vs non-zeovit tanks since both systems would have roughly the same uptake of iron? but then at what levels are considered 'elevated' - what is the level of iron that is considered detrimental to your tank? the levels of iron in nsw are extremely low, but is that to say that this is "the norm?" or can corals adapt and thrive with increased levels?

i maybe able to get saltwater tested for levels of iron - if this is going to help...??

oh, and just to quote RC again (also quoted from the previous zeovit debate on this site )

The zeolite used for the reef aquarium hobby is a clinoptilolite, characterized by strong ammonia affinity and only minor calcium affinity. All other zeolites used in the fresh water hobby strongly adsorb calcium... not really good for marine tanks.

However, when te clinoptilolit adsorbs ammonia, bacteria can simply nitrify the ammonia to generate nitrate (oxic surface), which is further denitrified within the molecular sieve of the zeolite (anoxic inner surface).

Ammonia adsorption is the key why the current within a zeolit filter must be high, otherwise bacteria would'nt have any chance to catch any dissolved inorganic nutrient.

As these clinoptilolites also contain iron and manganese, we have discussed whether iron and manganese dissolve in seawater and bind orthophosphate in the water column. These metal-phosphates might then be skimmable. But this hypothesis is still unprooved. However. when you put zeolite in the water, your aquarium water gets cristal clear within 24 hours. I think, that's due to the iron/manganese release and subsequent skimming of metal-phosphate colloids. But as I said, that's an unprooved hypothesis.

Zeovit is a product name, not a specific zeolite. Zeovit ist the clinoptilolite, zeofood is a growth medium for heterotrophic bacteria with ammonium acetate as carbon source for heterotrophic bacterial nutrition, enriched with amino acids and vitamins, and the zeobac bacteria T. Pohl sells might be Paracoccus denitrificans (because these are commonly sold as aquarium bacteria in Germany). That's it with zeovit.

You can also combine zeolites with vodka. The zeolite works independently from any carbon source you add to the water, because the main function of the zeolite is to adsorb ammonia.