wasp Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Coral growth is in fact related to health. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 cool - game on again RnB goes to get popcorn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Not sure what game it is you want to play Peter. For my part I decided to come back and post a few rational points that have been somewhat overlooked, for the benefit of those with a genuine interest in the product. The thread so far has been overweighted with speculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted June 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Layton some of those statements of yours really are a hoot! :lol: :lol: :lol: Don't worry, I get as much entertainment out of your posts too. What did you find so funny. And what were you're rational points? Anything related to zeovit is pure spectulation (any theories, including any you may have wasp). The simple fact is is that there is no proof that zeovit does anything. That is not to say it doesn't do anything, i know it does, but still there is no proof it does. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Anyone interested in a better explanation as to how Zeovit works can find one here http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showt ... ost5174769 ( Thanks Alois ). If it doesn't come out in the right place for you, look for the post by Alois in the middle of the page. While this info is actually about a competitor product, the principle is in many ways similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted June 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 I though zeovit was unique? No other system like it? Sounds like that theory is based on making iron bioavailable. Hmm, that sounds familiar Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Iron may play a part, I wouldn't know, it is unproven speculation. But anyone claiming that iron is the whole story is wrong, or we could achieve the exact same thing by simply dosing the correct form of iron, and that is clearly not the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted June 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 How do you know? What makes you say that? Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Sounds like that theory is based on making iron bioavailable. Hmm, that sounds familiar Layton Wrong, you need to read it again, there is a lot more to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted June 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Wrong, you need to read it again, there is a lot more to it. What critical part am i missing? Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 How do you know? What makes you say that? Layton How do I know? Easy:- Let's say we dosed iron into for example your tank. Your corals would become even browner than they are now, perhaps with a tinge of green, if it would show through the brown. They would not become more colourful. If you don't believe me, try it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 What critical part am i missing? Layton Just read it again, you should be able to see. And I do not want this to degenerate into a slanging match thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted June 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 How do I know? Easy:- Let's say we dosed iron into for example your tank. Your corals would become even browner than they are now, perhaps with a tinge of green, if it would show through the brown. They would not become more colourful. If you don't believe me, try it. Tell me what to dose how much and i'll do it in a seperate tank i am currently setting up. I'll let you know what happens. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted June 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 Just read it again, you should be able to see. And I do not want this to degenerate into a slanging match thank you. ok, i'll give it a go. In the middle of the big carbohydrate molecules of Aktive BAK is an Iron atom that is connected with two organic acids. Add an iron chelate. During the metabolism of the organic acids the Iron atom will be set free. Make it bioavailable through bacteria. This atom will immediately be connected with Phosphate. Iron is free to bind to other molecule (it is actually not specific to JUST phosphate) Still sounds very familiar? Did I go wrong somewhere? But what it doesn't explain is: Nitrate reduction. Colouration of corals despite indicators of high nutrients. Occasional coral losses. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 It does sound like the process that Alois posted is IMHO the same process that zeo uses are using. Marketing/languge aside, they do sound very simmilar.... IMHO its not just iron, but the iron plays a MAJOR role in both the early breakdown of ammoinia and also the binding of phosphates.... Reef - what product is the one you posted on RC ? layton - i think i read that the iron is critical to bacteria that breakdown ammoinia, its removal early on means that nitrate cannot form in normal quantities... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 I cannot give you a dose rate, iron is unstable in an aquarium and dose rate will vary from one to another. But if you want to try, go ahead and dose according to the manufacturers recomendations. You will find that the effect will if you dose enough, be to darken your corals even more, perhaps with a green tinge. It will not produce beautiful colors as in a zeovit system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted June 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 According to speculation on the thread. Ammonia acts as an electron donor for metal eating bacteria to reduce iron (change it to a different speciation). Reducing ammonia before oxidation, means less nitrates being produced. It appears that iron can explain almost all of the processes which are visibly occuring. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 According to speculation on the thread. Ammonia acts as an electron donor for metal eating bacteria to reduce iron (change it to a different speciation). Reducing ammonia before oxidation, means less nitrates being produced. It appears that iron can explain almost all of the processes which are visibly occuring. Layton Wrong. That's all speculation at this stage. And to prove it, go ahead and dose some iron and see what happens to your corals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted June 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 I cannot give you a dose rate, iron is unstable in an aquarium and dose rate will vary from one to another. But if you want to try, go ahead and dose according to the manufacturers recomendations. You will find that the effect will if you dose enough, be to darken your corals even more, perhaps with a green tinge. It will not produce beautiful colors as in a zeovit system. Which speciation of iron? Does it need to be chelated? What do you mean by unstable in an aquarium? What if i dose it at a rate base on the study by lars, later confimed by Habib, consistent with the leach rate of the zeovit zeolites? Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 why not just add the zeo rocks and watch the iron concentration rise as in the test on the RC? i imagine the rate of release and specificic ion is REAL important.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted June 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 Wrong. That's all speculation at this stage. And to prove it, go ahead and dose some iron and see what happens to your corals. Actually that is all fact. It does occur, it's proven to happen. The speculation come when making the connection with the zeovit system. There are bacteria (which apparently are quite common) which take ammonia, under aerobic conditions, use it as an electron donor to reduce iron. By reducing ammonia, you reduce the rate at which nitrate is created. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted June 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 why not just add the zeo rocks and watch the iron concentration rise as in the test on the RC? Because I don't think anyone here has access to the equipment require to test this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie extreme Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 RnB wrote: why not just add the zeo rocks and watch the iron concentration rise as in the test on the RC? Because I don't think anyone here has access to the equipment require to test this. so layton why do't you just put some zeovit rocks into your system and wait and see? if it is just the iron from the rocks and not any of the other chemicals from the zeovit system then you should see some improvements on your brown acro's. this wouldn't reqire any test kits, just some good eye sight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 Actually that is all fact. It does occur, it's proven to happen. The speculation come when making the connection with the zeovit system. There are bacteria (which apparently are quite common) which take ammonia, under aerobic conditions, use it as an electron donor to reduce iron. By reducing ammonia, you reduce the rate at which nitrate is created. Well, we are getting somewhere at last. I have been saying since day one that zeovit is a bacterial driven system, and I congratulate you that you at last appear to have accepted this, rather than what you were saying in that last zeovit thread Took a while though :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 so layton why do't you just put some zeovit rocks into your system and wait and see? if it is just the iron from the rocks and not any of the other chemicals from the zeovit system then you should see some improvements on your brown acro's. this wouldn't reqire any test kits, just some good eye sight. Excellent suggestion. Even just the zeolite rocks alone may help his brown acros, not nessecarily because of iron, but because the zeolite will facilitate bacteria and help reduce his high nutrients. Iron may be a part of this, but I wouldn't think it is the whole story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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