s3xtcy Posted July 10, 2011 Report Share Posted July 10, 2011 Hey guys, im looking at getting a Juwel Rio 400, its currently running as a saltwater setup and I just want some info on whether or not its a good size for a saltwater tank, and what gear I need to make it run well. eg, What size skimmer - do they come in different sizes? How much live rock? How big should the sump be? What salt is best? and where to get it from? What lighting is needed to grow decent Corals etc? its already got a extra t5 HO set of lights in it (which brings it up to 4) and they are all "Marine" tubes. Im thinking about getting it sumped with a overflow setup in the corner so the top of the water is still out of sight Ive never had saltwater before so im not really sure what im getting into. any info would be great and muchly appreciated. Also one question, is no sunlight the best option? or is a brightly lit but no direct sunlight ok? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silentone Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Hey guys, im looking at getting a Juwel Rio 400, its currently running as a saltwater setup and I just want some info on whether or not its a good size for a saltwater tank, and what gear I need to make it run well. eg, What size skimmer - do they come in different sizes? How much live rock? How big should the sump be? What salt is best? and where to get it from? What lighting is needed to grow decent Corals etc? its already got a extra t5 HO set of lights in it (which brings it up to 4) and they are all "Marine" tubes. Im thinking about getting it sumped with a overflow setup in the corner so the top of the water is still out of sight Ive never had saltwater before so im not really sure what im getting into. any info would be great and muchly appreciated. Also one question, is no sunlight the best option? or is a brightly lit but no direct sunlight ok? Cheers Heres my Rio 400 tank haha yes, more mariners Thanks for the warm hearted welcome Im seriousally undecided about the tank though.. its a Juwel Rio 400, but im not sure if I want the Rio400 or if I want a Vision 450.. argh! *pulling hair out!!* Heres my rio 400.. Not looking the best at the moment.. bulbs i brought are crap and causing bad algae but new bulbs here soon :thup: display: 350l sump (not a good example of cable management :nilly: Skimmers come in all shapes and sizes, but the skimmer is what you don't want to go on the cheap about. Always try to get a skimmer which is rated for 2-3x your tank volume as some skimmer makers always upsell there skimmer to how much it can handle. Try and go for about 30-40kg of live rock, Are you going to buy the live rock or buy the coral rock and cycle it yourself? The sump can be whatever size you want, Most go for something that will hold heaters, skimmer, a bit of rock, filter etc. Go as big as you can. You can pickup salt from most LFS and RedSea coral salt pro is pretty good. But if you are a clean source of NSW you can just use that (Thats what i do, along with other reefers) Ideally the stock rio 400 lighting isnt great as its got 2x t8 tubes so would be fine to keep fish and a few corals such as muchrooms, zoas etc. You can go two ways if you want to keep hard corals, anemones or maximise growth.. LED or MH, MH has been around for ages where as LED is quite new so some people are un-decided about LED but they are improving daily. I personally have 2x 250W MH, and 2x 54W blue tubes in my tank and its plenty of light and i keep 2 anemones, and a few SPS. Flick me a pm if i can be of anymore help or just reply back here.. Goodluck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 eg, What size skimmer - do they come in different sizes? How much live rock? How big should the sump be? What salt is best? and where to get it from? What lighting is needed to grow decent Corals etc? its already got a extra t5 HO set of lights in it (which brings it up to 4) and they are all "Marine" tubes. Im thinking about getting it sumped with a overflow setup in the corner so the top of the water is still out of sight Ive never had saltwater before so im not really sure what im getting into. any info would be great and muchly appreciated. Also one question, is no sunlight the best option? or is a brightly lit but no direct sunlight ok? the jewel is a good size tank, I would get a hang on skimmer so you will not need a sump. the t5s should be pretty good to keep most corals, i would get a white bulb as it will brighten the tank, Most salt mixes like red sea is ok, the cheaper salts are not great. the amount of rock is up to you, some tanks look cool with very little rock, You will also need a way to filter your tape water. get a decent ro/di filter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3xtcy Posted July 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Thanks guys, do eheim make skimmers? I will have to do a bit of googling, as so far for tropical ive found eheim to be the best investment ive ever made. I definately want to sump it, as in my other thread there is a link in there that shows a rebuilt cabinet, thats what I want to do, and have it majority sump, because as I understand it, if I have a decent sump setup, i do not need to use a canister filter? @ Silentone, your tank is a exception!! although the rest of the setup isnt going to go too well in the lounge / hallway LOL and my partner might just divorce me! but that gives a very good indication as to what I need, and just how serious im getting! is that a AR620T I see? Is 30-40kg of live rock enough for 550ish litres? and how much do you think I could feasably (spelling not a strong point) fit in a 100ish litre sump? How many kg of live rock is in your Rio Display, as opposed to your sump (if you have a sump for that tank)? Im not sure about buying it cycled, as its a long time away im tempted to buy it dead and cycle it myself, that way Ive seen it and experienced it all too! plus it means I can buy bits and bobs and keep adding (this is where the spare room comes in handy ) @ Reef, is there any reason why you wouldnt put a sump on a Vision 450? And is Red sea salt commonly available? I would think if its good / best then it would be? Also, whats a ro/di filter? The reason im wanting a sump is because then I can hide almost if not all of the gear, as its going to be a in house / display tank i want it clean looking, how big are hang on skimmers? Thanks for all your help guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silentone Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Thanks guys, do eheim make skimmers? I will have to do a bit of googling, as so far for tropical ive found eheim to be the best investment ive ever made. I definately want to sump it, as in my other thread there is a link in there that shows a rebuilt cabinet, thats what I want to do, and have it majority sump, because as I understand it, if I have a decent sump setup, i do not need to use a canister filter? @ Silentone, your tank is a exception!! although the rest of the setup isnt going to go too well in the lounge / hallway LOL and my partner might just divorce me! but that gives a very good indication as to what I need, and just how serious im getting! is that a AR620T I see? Is 30-40kg of live rock enough for 550ish litres? and how much do you think I could feasably (spelling not a strong point) fit in a 100ish litre sump? How many kg of live rock is in your Rio Display, as opposed to your sump (if you have a sump for that tank)? Im not sure about buying it cycled, as its a long time away im tempted to buy it dead and cycle it myself, that way Ive seen it and experienced it all too! plus it means I can buy bits and bobs and keep adding (this is where the spare room comes in handy ) @ Reef, is there any reason why you wouldnt put a sump on a Vision 450? And is Red sea salt commonly available? I would think if its good / best then it would be? Also, whats a ro/di filter? The reason im wanting a sump is because then I can hide almost if not all of the gear, as its going to be a in house / display tank i want it clean looking, how big are hang on skimmers? Thanks for all your help guys Red Sea Coral Salt Pro is avaliable through most petshops, As it comes from Petware (whos the supplier) If you have a sump i wouldn't bother with a canister filter, as sometimes canister filters can cause a few problems with nitrates whereas your sump can allow all sorts of good critters to grow (they won't grow in a canister filter as some are pressurized and dark) Normally have 1kg of live rock to very 10 litres, but it comes down to how you want the tank to look and how much you want to stock in it. As more rock is more surface area for bacteria/critters/worms to grow and live. Yeah thats a 620T with a deep sand bed that failed ahaha.. At one point it was just a deep sand bed and had frags all up the walls but when i gave the frags away i just put rock in it to cycle it for other locals to take when starting out a new tank. I've got two big islands so id say maybe 45-60kg?? I've also got sand which helps with the surface area for things to live in. Go with a sump if you can, Its good for increasing your total volume, hides all the heaters and bits and pieces Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3xtcy Posted July 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Red Sea Coral Salt Pro is avaliable through most petshops, As it comes from Petware (whos the supplier) If you have a sump i wouldn't bother with a canister filter, as sometimes canister filters can cause a few problems with nitrates whereas your sump can allow all sorts of good critters to grow (they won't grow in a canister filter as some are pressurized and dark) Normally have 1kg of live rock to very 10 litres, but it comes down to how you want the tank to look and how much you want to stock in it. As more rock is more surface area for bacteria/critters/worms to grow and live. Yeah thats a 620T with a deep sand bed that failed ahaha.. At one point it was just a deep sand bed and had frags all up the walls but when i gave the frags away i just put rock in it to cycle it for other locals to take when starting out a new tank. I've got two big islands so id say maybe 45-60kg?? I've also got sand which helps with the surface area for things to live in. Go with a sump if you can, Its good for increasing your total volume, hides all the heaters and bits and pieces Ok, so a sump needs to have a light in it? what kind of light? and how many watts / what spectrum should it be for best results? What "Critters" grow in there that are beneficial? If thats 45-60kg then im quite happy with that amount, probably your right hand side mound would be mostly in the sump, and whats rest of it would get spread out from the left mound towards the right, like a low, low reef oh and what are frags? thanks, im certainly wanting a sump, for those exact reasons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silentone Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Ok, so a sump needs to have a light in it? what kind of light? and how many watts / what spectrum should it be for best results? What "Critters" grow in there that are beneficial? If thats 45-60kg then im quite happy with that amount, probably your right hand side mound would be mostly in the sump, and whats rest of it would get spread out from the left mound towards the right, like a low, low reef oh and what are frags? thanks, im certainly wanting a sump, for those exact reasons It doesn't have to but always good to, As i have a reasonable water volume when the lights go out on the display some corals stop photosynthesizing and can cause a bit of a ph swing so i run the lights in reverse. I'm just using some crappy T5 bulbs which just keep the coraline algae growing and light for anything living in there. You get all sorts growing in the sump..i get bristle worms, copepods, amphipods, starfish, limpits, snails. Sitting back and looking at all the life in there is just amazing! Yeah its all personal preference, thats whats good about the hobby.. all doing the same thing but differently. Frags are fragments of corals, like taking a clipping off a tree and growing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3xtcy Posted July 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Excellent! Now to start getting funds together! Soo.. my list so far consists of : Tank: Juwel Vision 450 - wavemakers - sand substrate - live rock Custom stand - Sump -- heater -- protein skimmer -- lighting -- live rock Anything im missing? Also what do people reccommend for each component? Id rather spend the cash first than have to replace due to inadequacy later on.. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silentone Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Excellent! Now to start getting funds together! Soo.. my list so far consists of : Tank: Juwel Vision 450 - wavemakers - sand substrate - live rock Custom stand - Sump -- heater -- protein skimmer -- lighting -- live rock Anything im missing? Also what do people reccommend for each component? Id rather spend the cash first than have to replace due to inadequacy later on.. Thanks! You can pickup "dead" coral rock which will be cheaper, what i would do is get 80% dead rock and then cycle the tank till you have your ammonia spike and then the tank settles. then get 20% pre-seeded live rock.. As if you brought live rock from the start the cycle can kill everything on the live rock making it useless. But when buying live rock see if there are any algaes, small brown anemone looking things (aiptasia which are a pest). I'd also consider upgrading the factory lighting on the tank incase you do want to get into corals which require the better light or anemones. Wish you the best of luck! :nilly: You know where to find me if i can be of anymore help, I don't normally check this forum much as use others Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3xtcy Posted July 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Thank you very much Silentone, ill keep you updated as i start building and i will no doubt have more questions, ill PM you when ive got something you might be interested in? Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spoon Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 RODI unit is a good idea you may also want some kind of media reactor to run phosphate remover in further down the track also you want to start thinking about which type of overflow setup you want to use to get the water to the sump. you could also buy another juwel light setup and get the reflectors would look nice and neat and capable of keeping most corals possibly even hard corals although they would need to be higher up on the rock closer to the light Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silentone Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Yeah adding to what spoon said, RO/DI is Reverse Osmosis De-ionization, Basically it strips everything out of tap water and leaves nothing behind. As there are unwanted things in our tap water such as silicates which cause algae etc. http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=384192166 Thats what i've got, with the RI resin.. Those units are wicked! You will NEED a RO/DI unit if you are going to be mixing ASW to ensure your water is top quality. Also come back to the lights at a later stage if you decided you want to keep more needing corals, Maybe MH or LED. :happy2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3xtcy Posted July 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 RODI unit is a good idea you may also want some kind of media reactor to run phosphate remover in further down the track also you want to start thinking about which type of overflow setup you want to use to get the water to the sump. you could also buy another juwel light setup and get the reflectors would look nice and neat and capable of keeping most corals possibly even hard corals although they would need to be higher up on the rock closer to the light Thanks guys, will certainly invest in a ro/di filter, what is a Media Reactor? And im confused about the overflow idea, iplanon having a hole drilled at the top of the tank to act as a overflow out of the tank, if theres a power cut, the return pump stops, so the oveeflow should stop? How does it start a syphon and empty the tank or create a small flood? As for lighting i plan on growing hard corals, so i plan on doubling the lights anyway, maybe 4x 54w t5 HO's, do you think that would suffice? All would get reflectors and there would be a moonlight and a light in the sump. I have to do more research into MH's and LEDs but i like the sound of leds, but need to investigate further! Thanks guys!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silentone Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 Thanks guys, will certainly invest in a ro/di filter, what is a Media Reactor? And im confused about the overflow idea, iplanon having a hole drilled at the top of the tank to act as a overflow out of the tank, if theres a power cut, the return pump stops, so the oveeflow should stop? How does it start a syphon and empty the tank or create a small flood? As for lighting i plan on growing hard corals, so i plan on doubling the lights anyway, maybe 4x 54w t5 HO's, do you think that would suffice? All would get reflectors and there would be a moonlight and a light in the sump. I have to do more research into MH's and LEDs but i like the sound of leds, but need to investigate further! Thanks guys!! There are many types of overflows which you can use, some are better than others.. but some will recomend what they use because its what they are use to. In mine i built an overflow box with two holes in the back of the tank. One which is running full siphon and the other just trickles down and is the backup incase the full siphon breaks or clogs up. Another good failsafe is to have a second compartment in your sump that the water overflows into. So if both blocked for some reason then no water is overflowing into the pump compartment it would run dry rather than overflow the display which i like. Same deal with the overflow, If no water is getting up the siphon would stop and tank level wouldn't drop. Here are some photos of mine.. Look for an all in one unit if possible for lights, I run 2x 54W Actinic which give the blue, and then 2x 14k mh bulbs which is plenty. I didn't bother looking at LED because its quite new and people are having mixed results so i stuck with what i know works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spoon Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 thats a slight variation on a "herbie" overflow there are also durso standpipes most of these are modifications to deal with noise of water as a poorly designed overflow can be very loud and even make gurgling noises like a toilet! :-? i used a herbie set up with the back up pipe set up as a durso. there are other standpipes and overflows out there too some are more complex than they need to be i reccomend the herbie for being silent and easy to set up and use Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3xtcy Posted July 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 There are many types of overflows which you can use, some are better than others.. but some will recomend what they use because its what they are use to. In mine i built an overflow box with two holes in the back of the tank. One which is running full siphon and the other just trickles down and is the backup incase the full siphon breaks or clogs up. Another good failsafe is to have a second compartment in your sump that the water overflows into. So if both blocked for some reason then no water is overflowing into the pump compartment it would run dry rather than overflow the display which i like. Same deal with the overflow, If no water is getting up the siphon would stop and tank level wouldn't drop. Here are some photos of mine.. Thanks, so your pic shows the nearest overflow running full syphon and the further one as a backup? And the one right at the back is the return? Do you have a airlock problem with the full syphon? And is yours silent? Could you please post a pic of your sump with where the2 inlet and outlets go? Thank you so much! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silentone Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 Thanks, so your pic shows the nearest overflow running full syphon and the further one as a backup? And the one right at the back is the return? Do you have a airlock problem with the full syphon? And is yours silent? Could you please post a pic of your sump with where the2 inlet and outlets go? Thank you so much! Yeah the one pointed down is the full siphon and one facing up is the backup. I ended up moving the gate valves from the original design to just above the sump due to my tank being lower on the ground, I do have a slight issue with the airlock with my tank being low to the ground and my sump being just a bit lower but i actually just tilted my full siphon just upright so the air is forced out at the weakest point which is the angle upwards. Its SUPER silent, Only thing is when you have a power cut it gurgles for a few seconds when the siphon starts and the backup slows down and sometimes when moving rock around in the tank you get a wee gurgle but thats nothing really :thup: If i upgrade again i'll be doing the same method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3xtcy Posted July 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Hmmm.. ok im still slightly confused about the backup syphon, does this picture cover it? if it does then we are on the same track :thup: if not then :facepalm: its too late for thinking clearly.. lol This is the kind of idea ive been thinking of, and after doing a bit of research this seems to be a good way, but I need some help, where the yellow stars is where I need some magic, Basically, A drains to the sump through D (a ball valve to adjust flow) into the skimmer side of the tank B drains to the sump through E (a ball valve to adjust flow) into the Refugium area at a slower rate C is the return from the sump to a spraybar that will run from C across the wall of the tank (placement of C is far from final!) Anyway, the yellow stars, What I would like to happen down here (under the tank, out of sight) is the water-lock, where if I have a power cut etc, then this piece recreates the syphon and makes the system flow again. - Without having to restart the syphon manually. Any ideas? Im sure its quite simple, but my brains not working ! :nilly: :nilly: Also the main reason I want such a large Refugium is because I want to keep approx 50% of my live rock in there. So bigger is better 8) Thanks Heaps Everyone. Shey PS : Larger Pic of Sump and Tank idea : http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn278/st-wepn/SumpPrototype1-1.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3xtcy Posted July 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Or... Is this the better option, the pipe on the left as my full syphon (90 degree bend facing down in the tank), and with a second pipe added on the left hand side, that is my "emergency siphon"? - The 90 degree bend turned upwards inside the tank? Also in your tank Silentone, they appear to be in a perspex box? is this absolutely necessary? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 I'm looking to get a Juwel Vision 450 and use it for marine once I get a cheque from EQC. If you don't want to drill it, Juwel are about to release a skimmer that will sit inside their tanks. Apparantly it will be here in about a month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silentone Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 Hmmm.. ok im still slightly confused about the backup syphon, does this picture cover it? if it does then we are on the same track :thup: if not then :facepalm: its too late for thinking clearly.. lol This is the kind of idea ive been thinking of, and after doing a bit of research this seems to be a good way, but I need some help, where the yellow stars is where I need some magic, Basically, A drains to the sump through D (a ball valve to adjust flow) into the skimmer side of the tank B drains to the sump through E (a ball valve to adjust flow) into the Refugium area at a slower rate C is the return from the sump to a spraybar that will run from C across the wall of the tank (placement of C is far from final!) Anyway, the yellow stars, What I would like to happen down here (under the tank, out of sight) is the water-lock, where if I have a power cut etc, then this piece recreates the syphon and makes the system flow again. - Without having to restart the syphon manually. Any ideas? Im sure its quite simple, but my brains not working ! :nilly: :nilly: Also the main reason I want such a large Refugium is because I want to keep approx 50% of my live rock in there. So bigger is better 8) Thanks Heaps Everyone. Shey PS : Larger Pic of Sump and Tank idea : http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn278/st-wepn/SumpPrototype1-1.jpg The point in the backup is to pickup the flow that the full siphon doesn't, Also over time you will find you will get a gunk buildup inside the pipes and can effect the flow rate. So the backup is there to pickup the slack from the full siphon. Its also good to have incase one blocks that your tank should remain functioning etc. The siphon is all automatic, I always test my tank every few weeks by unplugging my return pump and plugging it back in and it works perfect everytime :happy1: I had a feeling you may ask about the glass box, The glass box makes the water overflow into it and is then taken out by the siphon and theres a couple reasons for doing it.. One being that its a large surface to intake from.. rather than just a corner. and you can sometimes get a thin fim on the other end of the tank. Another is so fish/anemeones cannot easily get caught into the return system. In my old tank i just had one hole in the back left hand corner and i lost a fish down it and i had my lta move into it. Yes bigger is always better Make sure your refugum section divider sits a bit higher so the water has to overflow and then drop into the return section. -- Just a side note, I'd run the full siphon down into the skimmer and have the backup running into the ref. Because with having the gate valve on both lines you can turn the full siphon down to like 80% and have a guaranteed 20% overflowing down the backup into the ref. -- I wouldn't bother with that second as your loosing good pressure from your return pump and having it into the ref, I'd run the backup pipe as per above. :thup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3xtcy Posted July 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 Hmmm. I think i need to see some in person, at the moment i still like the bottom rendered.image, im planning on having a big enough pump to not have to worry about 20% loss to the refuge, but ive taken your advice onboard, im trying to design something that can be kept in the sump area that will restart the syphon after it loses its syphon after a power outage. Ive got the theory down, just have to put it on paper. Ive got a few ideas that ill draw out, scan, then post Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silentone Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 Hmmm. I think i need to see some in person, at the moment i still like the bottom rendered.image, im planning on having a big enough pump to not have to worry about 20% loss to the refuge, but ive taken your advice onboard, im trying to design something that can be kept in the sump area that will restart the syphon after it loses its syphon after a power outage. Ive got the theory down, just have to put it on paper. Ive got a few ideas that ill draw out, scan, then post Cheers Well best of luck, I did say that this method does restart after a power outage.. Let me know how you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3xtcy Posted July 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 Will do ill post some pics tomorow hopefully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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