Henward, share your VIP red!

[007]

There are 3 colouring phases in the red aro life. The first phase is from the fish 6 month years old to 2.5 years. In this phase you could see the red area and colour growing which is most important period for keep the fish into a fish tank. 70% - 80% colour will develop in this phases if you put a fish in a fish tank. The second phase is from 3 years to 5 years old, we call the phase is “Adult phase colouring”. The fish will get more deep red colour for attract the male/female fish for have the baby fish in wild, however, that is not going to be very apparent thing if you keep it into your fish tank. The final colouring phase is from about 6 year. In this phase is almost every fish will lose the thin red colour and become thick and deep red shape but we could control that if you want this happen later. After this period, all the red aro will drop eye.

Henward, firstly, in your fish tank, I can see there is strong wave in your tank and I can hear very noise water sound. That is no good for red aro. Red aro is different with gold one. Red aro likes quite and peace place. You can not find any breeder in Indonesia even put a small water head in the tank because the water wave could increase the metabolism of the fish. We want the 60% of food go to the scale colour and 40% of food to go the fish body. We want the food stay in scale to colouring up and not JUST growing and growing to huge/ monster fish (like your RTG) and just keep pink red colour. Shrimp with shell could give more red colour to the fish, especially the shell! Yes, shape is important but colour is more important for a red aro! Otherwise there is no different between the No.2 and VIP red…

Secondly, the light. Darkness environment is necessary for red aro. Your tank is too bright. Yes, you said you will put water light after one year then you will lose the phase 1 colouring which is most important period for red aro in a fish tank.

Also the too many fishes in your tank. “Never mix fish for a good aro because it’s dragon” I still remember Mr. Xie said that to me when I visit him in Indonesia. He is F4 red aro creator...

Also there are more and more about your tank. Too many details… Mate, I only just give you my suggestion from my experience. I saw my client to keep a good fish and I also saw a sad story in the past. Please do not get me wrong and that is ok if you don’t want take my suggestion.

BTW, can you public the email I sent to you, I mean the photo of Sean’s fish. He just take that photo after 8 month since he got that vip---- no mix fish, darknees light, two water lights, one top lights(red), water water, very very quiet tank, no water head. PH6.3, exactly he did as I told him. You could see the deep deep red colour… don’t you want the same thing happen to your fish after 8 month?

[henward]

I used to have agrade 1.5 red arowana.

it was an adult.

the red in that arowana was pink and very light. almost green arowana.

the colour of this vip is already 1000% different to that red, i think thsi vip is veryd ifferent and no matter what will never be similar but yes, nice fish.

I will post the pictures when i get home.

just some things though i wanan address:

first and foremost, i do respect what you say, as you are very experienced. But also, I do read articles, research papers and opinions of hundreds of Red aro keepers overseas.

SOme of whcih are breeders, importers/exporters.

so when I reasearch a fish, I never just take advise from one source. Doing so is not prudent. I research far more than people may think and never the less, when you spend an excess of $5000 on a fish :slfg: i certainly do my homework.

i guess there are differing opinions - and there are ones backed by science, some observation and some information is through concensus where many have said the same thing.

My response below.

[Fruju]

Tank wouldn't look very nice if it was darker IMO.

[henward]

"There are 3 colouring phases in the red aro life. The first phase is from the fish 6 month years old to 2.5 years. In this phase you could see the red area and colour growing which is most important period for keep the fish into a fish tank. 70% - 80% colour will develop in this phases if you put a fish in a fish tank. The second phase is from 3 years to 5 years old, we call the phase is “Adult phase colouring”. The fish will get more deep red colour for attract the male/female fish for have the baby fish in wild, however, that is not going to be very apparent thing if you keep it into your fish tank. The final colouring phase is from about 6 year. In this phase is almost every fish will lose the thin red colour and become thick and deep red shape but we could control that if you want this happen later. After this period, all the red aro will drop eye. "

I dont disagree with colouring phase, though i have read that red arowanas differ and there is nothing anyone can do to bring otu colour sooner but genetics. Food is only at most 10% to 20% of the equation. Colour is determined by the parents.

The deepness of the red in pictures ont eh internet is almost always FAKE RED LIGHTS that literally fool the eyes. the wavelength of light and spectrum basically makes red stand out more. Light uv lighst and a highlighter - True test is how red it gets under white light.

Some arowanas show most of their colour from young, some take a few years before it 'blooms' in to a deeper red.

TaNNING: tanning lighst principle is to mimic sunlight - and mimic its UVA and UVB. I have seen videos of arowana harvesting, and the fish are so imcredibly red, as they are exposed to full sun all year round. Ideally, our red arowana and gold should be exposed to sun. But we cant in NZ, so the tanning lights mimics this. The higher the UVB the better it is. Arcadia has 6% uvb, and it also has a red light to it whcih enhances artificially the reds on a fish, turning orange to red in the human eye.

However, true redness should be under white light, and every single person i have spokent o overseas, even breeders said that arcadia D3 lights for reptile, a desert tube with 12% uvb is the highest and best in the market (opinions differ but more than 80%of feedback i got was this)

Henward, firstly, in your fish tank, I can see there is strong wave in your tank and I can hear very noise water sound. That is no good for red aro. Red aro is different with gold one. Red aro likes quite and peace place. You can not find any breeder in Indonesia even put a small water head in the tank because the water wave could increase the metabolism of the fish. We want the 60% of food go to the scale colour and 40% of food to go the fish body. We want the food stay in scale to colouring up and not JUST growing and growing to huge/ monster fish (like your RTG) and just keep pink red colour. Shrimp with shell could give more red colour to the fish, especially the shell! Yes, shape is important but colour is more important for a red aro! Otherwise there is no different between the No.2 and VIP red…

I agree, flow in tank makes fish bigger, more active and thicker. Fraser met someone in UNI that did research on kingfish, control batch and high flow batch, the high flow batch got bigger. just like humans it makes sense, muscle development is from resistance. But in saying that, if the fish needs mroe food as it uses more energy and you feed enough to give it what it needs in theory it wont make a difference. I also feed pellets whcih is concentrated nutrients so they shouldnt be short of beta carotene whcih is the colourant in food. (I am still awaiting feedback from others about this overseas) rivers have natural parts where there is flow and some still. My tank has this too.

As for 1.5 grade, therre is a big difference, i used to have a low grade red, it was not nice at all. difference is 1000% more! as for the breeder in indonesia, he is of course the expeert. But some of these guys also believes in old wives tales and i guess i need a good scientific explanation for this.

Secondly, the light. Darkness environment is necessary for red aro. Your tank is too bright. Yes, you said you will put water light after one year then you will lose the phase 1 colouring which is most important period for red aro in a fish tank.

Also the too many fishes in your tank. “Never mix fish for a good aro because it’s dragon” I still remember Mr. Xie said that to me when I visit him in Indonesia. He is F4 red aro creator...

Light and Darkness:

This is interesting. As i said above, 1999 i went to singapore and was considering importing high grade discus, and the discus breeder took me to his friend who owned Panda Aquatics. and i saw his arowanas that was bought inside from the breeding ponds. So red! these guys are old massive aros, vivid red, No lighting - just sunlight.

If these arowanas can get red in the bright full tropical sun of singapore...then my lights are very dim compared to sunlight. Sunlight is key to making aro red.

I knwo what you mean though.

In most tanks i have seen red, they have black background and floor as i do, and they have 2 to 3 lights, usually red lighting and 1 dim white light. Then a tanning light.

so what happens is that the tank background plus the red tanning light and red overhead light actually make the fish stand out more, thus giving a more red appearance.

its like a yellow road sign with black writing - same principle.

Asking about phase 1 befoer you mentioned,and reading numerous articles overseas. There is alot of conjecture and arguaments on this but the strikingly common answer about tanning is this. (NOTE: all info i have are from articles from arowana clubs, quotes from breeders and champions and their regime in arowana keeping an d overseas experience from people with photos to validate their input)

Tanning DOES NOT make an arowna red. Tanning only darkens the already existing colours. So tanning will not make an arowana red with bad genes. that is why a low grade red will never become red. A VIP arowana generally speaking will not get BLOOD RED colouration untill maybe at the final phase of colouration. what creates a blood red dark red colour is the tanning process - in pictures, usually its the red lighting. Red lighting makes anyting look red. Tanning will make the base scale colour darker (like it does human skin) and make the orange/red shades darker. So basically making it more contrasting and darker.

Tanning cannot be done suddenly. and it cannot stop suddenly, just like human skin.

Usually people tan their arowanas in this patter over a 5 to 7 week period

3 hours on for 1 week, 6, 8, 12 -- increasing in duration over 5 to 7 weeks.

Then the final phase is 24 hours tanning, then dropping it back slowly too so the arowana retains its colours, PUt tanning forever can put the arowna in a stressful environment shortening its life. So tanning has to be gradual, and the stoppage gradual also and maintained by a maintenance phase.

Pics you see online where the arowana is FULL SCALES RED - are actually under red NAN lighting whcih is designed to make a fake red.

I endeavour to use white lightings,a nd whent he red arcadia light expires, i will endeavour to use white desert tube so i can see the real red and not fake.

As for tank mates, i have seen some extremely red arowanas with tank mates. In fact in the wild they haev tank mates. Colour on fish can actually come out more to express their dominance when therre are tank mates, I dont see any valid science with keeping arowana by itself. or with only a few tank mates. (i am awaiting opinions frmo overseas ont his too) but this is my experience and take on this.

Also there are more and more about your tank. Too many details… Mate, I only just give you my suggestion from my experience. I saw my client to keep a good fish and I also saw a sad story in the past. Please do not get me wrong and that is ok if you don’t want take my suggestion.

Id like to hear more about my tank as to why my arowana may not reach a nice colour.

I have posted my rtg picture and video and i have had very good feedback from overseas, some even saying that my gold scales are much fuller than some have ever acomplished with their rtg and waht they have seen. Yet you said the size is imperssive but colour is not very good.

Also a comment was made by you a few months back that red arowana tank shouldnt have as much water changes as gold. this makes it redder. Now, no validation was responded to that, But i did my research as to why a breeder would tell you not to do as much water changes.

Nitrates NEVER is good for any fish. NEVER, that is the only thing you get with less water changes.

But the fact of the matter is, its not water changes or nitrates that helpt he reds, its WATER STABILITY that is key with reds. So you can have zero nitrates in theory, but water STABLE water. Sudden changes in water parameters is bad for arowanas (most fish actually too).

So this old wives tale and myth of less water changes is actually factual in a sense, just needed to be explained. But merely listening to an old man breeding expensive fish with no explanation isnt really something that is useful to me but i understand now...

I value everyones opinions - respect experience foremost, but i also am a big fan of science, and concensus as well as experience. I guess heresay is irrelevant to me - hard facts is what im after.

tanning guide:

http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204283

This is peer reviewed by suppliers, breeders and experts overseas. Articles placed on sites like these are peer reviewed like all articles on this forum.

I am determined to take care of this fish and follow advise from you and others too. others wtih same or more experience and people with tried ways of makign aros red, and very large. I want this aro to get very very large.

I will show you that i will make thsi beast red:D

I have seen champion photos, and i have seen photos of peoples red arowanas that are gorgeous as a comparison.

of course i welcome response and feedback 007 - in no way, i assert thsi now, i mean any disrespect or offense AT ALL by my passage above. Just a good discussion i reckon!! :bounce:

[henward]

tried darker, but you dont see the arowana shine at all, no colour as its in the shade.

i like to see the colousr when it swims as much as possible.

[henward]

http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328645

this is a photo gallery solely for Reds

You will see some of them with artificlal lights. Referred to as NAN lights. The entire fish becomes red, impossible, does not happen.

some of them are with white lights or arcadia lights for reptiles, some are a combo of both.

some have tanning lighst you will see the lights in front of the tank.

so you can see how it works.

Also, see the difference, most red arowana if UNTANNED will be come a very dark or orangey red colour on scales, then you convert that to darker shades upon tanning.

background does help slightly, food of course.

[Fruju]

Nice essay. My minimal research tends to be similar to henwards. Have a chat to 'Koji' on MFK- legit.

[ally07]

Ooohhh lordy, lordy, lordy, those are some :nfs:.. !drool: !drool: !drool:

Umm, if there is a Mod passing by, can we sticky this thread please? The discussions and the info are excellent, would be a shame to see it get lost in the sands of cyberspace. Thanks!

[henward]

http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=464665

same fish, one with the 'tanning lights' ior nan lights and the other is whtie light.

here you go:D

[007]

You have searched many things online and mostly i have different opinoin with me. (About old water, light and everything.) Do more research abut the old water and light and food. Eg, old water good for Red aro or not? Lots of people use the water light after 3 months and then take pic under WHITE LIGHT. Even under the white light, you will can see the differnt bewteen use and before.

But that's ok. Please put my comments to the rubish bin, do it in your way --- as long as you happy.

I used to keep your vip red but never mind, i'll try to find another one to keep and let's show after a year.

[henward]

007:

i have taken some advisement on what you have said but as i said there are some things that i have not taken on board, not putting them on the rubbish bin, i guess what Me and people are looking for is validation through a scientific explanation or even semi scientific.

The old water, i knwo what you mean, black water makes water look old.

but old water does not mean higher nitrates.

there is absolutely no advantage to having higher nitrates. That 'old water'principle stemmed from water stability.

stable water conditions, minimal temperature fluctuation, ph etc.

i know what you mean, people do tan their fish then put under white light, and it is red.

thats what i mean i will dio, i dont want the fish under tanning lighst just for my own satisfaction. I want to use tanning lights to tan fish, so it is red under whtie light and not just under tanning lights.

I have already purchased a tanning light, and i will use it, i just dont wanan use it straight away. under the advisement of everyone online and breeders, suppliers - i was told, focus on getting the arowana to put size on and get bigger, healthy then tan it.

while your approach is different and the other way around, both may work, but size for the fish is important to me. weather or not one is better than the other, thats a matter of opinion and trial. but i am following the first approach of feeding and getting size on, then tanning.

as for food, there is nothing wrong with feeding what you suggested, that is what i am doing.

I AM FEEDING PRAWN. like my other arowanas, i feed prawn with shell. but Pellet IS NOT bad for arowana, that is completely inaccurate. Pellets are packed with good things - i have experienced first hand that pellets make a massive difference to development.

weather or not it will be good for my red, thats another thing, we will see. BUt i am sure it will do no harm and only good. I must admit, in my experience, LIVE FOOD does make a difference in growth and activity of fish.

The thing is, because you know that i am not following 100% of your advise - when i do post a picture of mine after 1 year, you will still say that its not a nice colour and say the colour did not develop properly because I DID NOT FOLLOW YOUR ADVISE. so its hard to show a unbias basis of judgement. I can post online overseas and get good feedback, but because you believe your advise is the only way to get good colour, then you will say its not good anyways and criticise development i have :lol:

how often do your past clients replace their bulbs for the tanning lights?

What i will do is grow this fish up.

I am taking photos tomorrow with my matse SLR, then every 3 months, i will take photos to do a journal. of size, shapre and colour.

as the link i just put above, a person shows the difference between fake lighting and white lighting.

anyway, im not saying what your opinion is rubbish - you have had experience with red, i have had experience with fish keeping, different species and the science behind that counts for alot. its merely applied different to red arowana but fundementally, science is science.

that is why i ask for scientific reasoning on some aspects of what you were telling us but dont feel offended by it, this is a discussion.

as for the fish, no doubt its a gorgeous fish! liek i said, literally since i got it, on a daily basis, and no exxageration - i can see its scales changing and colours coming up.

[007]

ok, as long as you happy. I said it's your fish and your call.

[henward]

come on man, its not like that, just having a discussion.

its good to share opinions and stuff like that.

but yes, im happy with the fish !drool:

[007]

No no, dont get me wrong. Yes, you have my opinion. I just dont want to argue more. Forgive me if waste your time. Sorry about that. You happy with the fish quality---- That's really good!!!