Phosphates have reared there ugly head

[nodle]

Ok my water results have been looking all good for the last 18 days and my daitom bloom seems to be settling down. But when i did a full range of tests lastnight everything came back sweet apart from the Phosphate which is reading 0.5 ppm now i know that there will be a presance of Phosphates in the water in a new tank but if i run a Phosphate removal media will this stop me getting a hair algea outbreak or should i just let it run its course.

I am still going to wait a week to add fish to my system even though i am getting hasseled by the wife and my friends to put something in the tank other than the few soft corals i have in there at the moment.

Any advisse on this would be welcome and if i do add a phosphate remover which one would you all recomend / stay away from.

Cheers Dave

[cracker]

Most phosphate removals are expensive, You have media similar to activated carbon. Or polymer resin materials or Zeovit.

Another option is to grow macralgae in your sump which really works. I have been doing this for a month and the levels are gradually getting very small. UNDERFEED is the best method, but can be hard sometimes.

A decent feed every two days will help rather than twice a day.

I am sure you will get more advice on this post as everybody's posts help out in one way or another!

Good luck.

Craig

[cracker]

The diatom bloom will pass also and you may even experiance severe cloudiness. This happens sometimes but will go away with time.

I got a bad case of cloudiness on initial set up which cleared. Just let it happen. Hair algae should stay to a minimum if you keep your levels right. The next stage will be green algae which lasts for a lot longer and sticks to the glass a bit better!

[nodle]

Thanks Cracker. At the moment im not feeding as no fish in tank have capular growing in my small refugum only thing that i can think of is that maybe the carbon i added last week is releasing it or its coming from the tank cycle that has not long setteled down. Yeh diatom bloom is starting to settle down getting less each time i look at the tank or it could be my imagination :-?

Dave

[cracker]

You mean Caulerpa? The algae. Phosphates of .5 arent that bad at the moment. Your new rock will be letting a bit go while it is clearing up its crap. Phosphates up to and even over 1 wont kill much except for some harder to keep corals. These shouldnt be introduced for a fairly long time anyway so as to allow the tank to mature. At worst you will grow some more algae on your rocks.

[cracker]

Do you get Catseyes in ChCh? (Snails in rock pools).

[lduncan]

UNDERFEED is the best method, but can be hard sometimes.

A decent feed every two days will help rather than twice a day.

I totally disagree. I think a lot of people underfeed their tank trying to keep nutrients down. Fish need to be fed well. It will keep many other problems like disease away. Your tank will adjust to your feeding schedule as long as it is consistent, but don't reduce feeding to fix algae problems. They invariable fix themselves. Given time.

As for phosphate problems. I have never used phosphate remover, so others should be more help here.

[Fay]

You think your've got worries my phosphates are reading 2!!!!!!!!

[Pies]

My own strategy for phosphate control is many pronged.

* I feed sparingly, never feeding more than once per day, never feeding frozen food more than once a fortnight, never feed 2 days in a row. My fish are fat, but part of this could be contributed to the fact that I have over 1100 litres of refugium, which will be suplimenting food in the form of copepods and mysiids. Layton is right about not underfeeding, NickS lost his yellow tang to what he belives was underfeeding, I just gague how 'fat' the fish are looking, mine look good, not overly plump but healthy.

* I use phosphate removing resins. They are not that expensive. I replace them as soon as my phosphates test positive. Typically replaced every 4 months. I've been using Salifert product but have been warned off it, I will try some of the Aquamedic stuff next but ultimatly would like to use fluidised ROWAPHOS (a very popular method in the UK).

* Water changes.

* Deep sand beds (in 2 of my refugiums) & calurpa growing.

* Skimming. I have a skimmer thats slightly over speced for my tank, not massivly but it can easily handle my tank size. I clean my skimmer on Sundays, every sunday. Remove just over 1 litre of skimate from the cup.

All of these things work together for me to generate the result I need. Although some may argue the terminology I would say my phosphates are 0, that is undtectable with the kits I have. I have no intention of trying to do any more.

One thing to keep in mind is that phosphates need to be exported, they cannot be converted into something else. Skimming, macro algae, phosphate removing resins all remove phospahtes from the closed system, less feeding removes phosphates going in.

Phosphates don't need to be a big problem, they just need to be managed.

Hope that helps, good luck.

Pie

[wasp]

What is wrong with Salifert Phosphate Killer?

[jetskisteve]

The price

[wasp]

Yes, very funny. The old problem with all things marine!!

But Pies, why where you warned off this product? The price, or some problem with the product?

I used to use this myself and have some left over which I was just going to sell on Trade Me. If there is a problem with it I'd like to know before deciding to sell it.

[cracker]

I thought you would get lots of different answers here!

:roll:

[reef]

Salifert product but have been warned off it

what total rubbish, what is wrong with it??

As for Rowaphos, it is even more expensive, however as a option it will be available again in a few weeks

Rowa can be fluidised, but salifert cant.

Both are iron based, salifert is dry and rowaphos is wet.

[Pies]

what total rubbish, what is wrong with it??

Are you saying its total rubish i've been warned off it? I don't appreciate being told what I have said being total rubish, especially comming from the NZ rep of that product. Don't forget Reef you run a business and make money from selling Salifert, you can hardly consider your opnion well reasoned or unbiased. Again another attack from you, directed at me.

The Salifert product is based on Iron Oxide Hydroxide (GFO), Randy Holmes Farley from reefcentral.com has this to say:

Quite a large proportion of aquarists using GFO in reef aquaria have reported undesirable effects on corals. These reported effects include tissue recession and bleaching. Many advanced aquarists have associated these effects with the first addition, or with a later change, of the GFO. While many or all of these reports may be coincidence, there are enough reports that aquarists should be wary. Listed below are a number of possibilities that may be the cause:

A sudden drop in phosphate may stress certain organisms. This stress might be particularly important to corals with algal symbionts. The level of symbionts existing in a coral may depend to some extent on the availability of nutrients. A sudden drop in nutrients may imbalance the organism, leaving it with too many zooxanthellae for the newly-reduced nutrient levels. Especially if these corals are already living on the edge of survival, such stress may tip the balance toward disease.

In some cases, phosphate levels may drop below natural seawater levels, and phosphate may become the limiting nutrient. If this limitation is severe enough, corals and other organisms using phosphate may well be stressed, stop growing, and become more susceptible to disease.

Similar effects may result from a drop in certain trace metals. Since the effects of GFO on trace elements have not been clearly established in aquaria, it is possible that one or more critical elements may drop below optimal levels.

The release of soluble iron hydroxide itself may irritate certain corals, although many aquarists dose chelated iron without such effects. The iron hydroxide may, however, nucleate the precipitation of calcium carbonate in sub-optimal places, such as tissue surfaces. It may also bind directly to tissues.

The GFO may actually release certain metals other than iron from its surface. I have not seen any data on the chemical purity of these materials, and such issues may be a concern with some or all brands.

The drop in alkalinity and/or pH caused by abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate would not be expected to be very great in most aquaria, and typically isn't especially large, as reported by the aquarists themselves. In the cases from which I've seen data, the effect is not as great as the variability between aquaria or between dosing events in many aquaria. Still, such changes might be important in some circumstances where conditions are already marginal.

Since GFO binds organic materials, the addition of a significant amount of fresh surface area may rapidly drop the dissolved organic levels. Such a drop may stress corals by rapidly increasing the available light levels, or by reducing a food source, or both.In order to minimize such difficulties, many aquarists start off using GFO more slowly than the directions might suggest. Such caution seems warranted in most cases.

I have been using the salifert product for a while myself and havn't had any problems that I would attribute to it, however too many others do. I was also warned off using the Salifert product when using Zeovit, as for why you would have to ask Brendon I do not know why, I was just happy to trust his opnion on it.

Pie

[wasp]

Thanks Pies, that all makes sense, the RTN due to a sudden drop in Po4 is a known issue that can be managed, and I won't be selling it to anyone with zeovit, so think I can sell with a clear concience.

Anybody want? PM me, 1/2 store price.

By the way Reef, I used to run it in a fluid reactor, it would actually fluidize if I got the flow exactly right. Would eventually channel and then start to clump, I used to tip the reactor upside down and back a few times to prevent this. But I know Rowaphos will fluidize better.

[reef]

So what is rowaphos/aquamedic made of MARKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK??? where does randy say that it is the salifert phostphate remover that causes RTN?

All iron based products are also going to lower kh. and could cause rtn. its not salifert phostphate killer is it.

so how is salifert different to the other iron oxides?? all iron oxides can also cause rtn as they also lower kh

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/june2004/review.htm

why stop there. carbon will also cause rtn and bleeching/

why direct it at salifert, what is your hidden agenda.

Then you say that you will use rowaphos/aquamedic. which is the same thing, how are they going to not cause RTN.??

and quote by Randy Holmes Farley

The bottom line: Would I use GFO to export phosphate? The answer is a qualified yes. Phosphate is such a significant problem for reef aquaria that it should be kept appropriately low (less than 0.03 ppm) in some fashion. There are many ways to minimize the accumulation of phosphate. In my own reef, I prefer to use skimming, carbon, and macroalgae growth to export phosphorus. If these are unsuited to a particular setting, then perhaps GFO is an appropriate alternative.

Salifert is not designed to be fluidised, it even says it on the packet.

NODLE. Sorry to spoil your post.

[wasp]

Hi Nodle, IMHO, there are three main methods to export phosphate, these are

a refugium with macro algea

phosphate removing media

zeovit

Skimmers, feeding practises and general tank hygeine are part of the equation, but will not do the job alone. Sooner or later one of the above three methods will need to be utilized.

If you go with a macroalgae refugium it should ideally be around 1/2 the size of the main and brightly lit to encourage growth.

Phosphate removing media to avoid, avoid the ones that are aluminium based, such as the Seachem one. This is because over time they leach aluminium which may harm your leathers. The iron based ones are the best if using long term. Some may dissagree, but I'd recommend Salifert or Rowaphos. If using this media, it does cost, you will get more bang for your buck if you use it in a fluidised reactor.

Zeovit, well, to contraversial to go into here, but I use it and it has kept my phosphate at good levels.

[lduncan]

I was also warned off using the Salifert product when using Zeovit, as for why you would have to ask Brendon I do not know why, I was just happy to trust his opnion on it.

I think if you think hard enough you may figure out why.

Also I don't believe that a sudden drop in nutrients (nitrate and phosphate included) stresses corals at all, I think it is a myth.

Layton

[Pies]

ALoiiiiiissssssssss, not sure why you did this to my name, I assume it was supposed to be insulting somehow, so I shall do the same. Here we go again...

So what is rowaphos/aquamedic made of MARKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK??? where does randy say that it is the salifert phostphate remover that causes RTN?

I have no idea, the Aquamedic stuff I have seen is a zeolite, not GFO, I belive that ROWA is GFO but I could be wrong. I never said RHF saif it caused RTN, all I said is that I have been warned of it, which I have.

why direct it at salifert, what is your hidden agenda.

My hidden agenda is to bag Salifert because it a crap product is what your hinting at. However Salifert appears to be a very good product, hence the reason I use it (almost exclusivly). Like all companies they are bound to have the ocasional LEMON, perhapps this is one, apparanly the aipstasia killer is also crap, but thats only from what others who have used it have told me, no experance with it myself. The people I talk too, off shore (US, UK, Singapore), have warned me off the Salifert product, they have experanced problems with it, I am happy to take them at their word as I belive what they say, and they say that the problems went away when they went to Aquamedic or ROWA. If your bringing in ROWA thats great, any chance of selling it too me because i'd be very keen for some.

Then you say that you will use rowaphos/aquamedic. which is the same thing, how are they going to not cause RTN.??

As above, aquamedic is zeolite not GFO, unsure about the ROWA. RTN is not my only fear.

The post from Randy Homes Farley was simply to highlight that some people do have problems. If I gave you a link to 'joes ghetto tank in untah' with 'Joe' saying 'he rekkons the Salifert product hosed his corals' you would instantly dismiss it. I thought the RHF would show you that people do have problems because I suspected you wouldn't belive me, it adds legitimacy to what other people have told me and from what I have read.

Just to put your mind at ease because you obviously think something is going on thats not, I am not bagging Salifert, all I am saying is some people I know and trust have told me that they experanced problems when using the Salifert product, these problems went away when they switched to a different product. The RHF article says as much.

So how about sorting out some ROWA for me? I'll do a review of it based on my own experance if you like.

Alois (and to a lesser extent Layton). I have no hidden agenda, I don't care for the politics or the drama that go with your comments and I don't appreciate the insinuation. I am really, what possible motive could I have??? I am not trying to undermine anything you are doing or selling, or trying to activly promote other products basied on my relationship with other people (JetSkiSteve). I have always, and will continue to say what I think is right or correct and if that doesn't suit your own personal or business plans then too bad. Have a look around, I have on many ocasions in recent time said to people "try PMing Reef, he may be able to help", how much business have I sent you in the past not including my own, quite a bit I think. I am not sure why you why you are so paranoid but I am sure getting sick of your provications and insults.

Mark

[lduncan]

...and to a lesser extent Layton...

???

[wasp]

Surely the best way to put this argument to rest, is to say what the "problem" actually is. Then people may make their own judgement, rather than just have to read that "it causes problems" without further explanation.

The only problems I know of would be ones common to all iron based Po4 removers.

The best plan would be to say what the problem is, along with references or some other evidence, and then everybody lay back and let this thing go.

[Pies]

Wasp - Agree.

If your read my post all I said was 'i'd been warned off it', wasn't saying anybody should or shouldn't use, just why I had changed recently myself. I've even said that I have had no problems with it myself. Use it or don't use it, doesn't bother me in the slightest, i'm not using it. The reason i'm not using it is because i've been warned off it.

Layton - It was this comment from you that earned your place in my rant:

I think if you think hard enough you may figure out why.

If I have my wires crossed or are being unfair , I'm sorry and please disregard.

To expand on this further, Brendon actually told me to avoid GFO based phospate binders, not the Salifert product specifically, sorry to give that impression, poor descriptive on my part.

Bye-gones? Group hug? Any chance of returning to the 'good old days'?

Pies

[Fay]

I was told not to use Phosphate remover with Zeovit, as far as I know its not required as Zeovit does the job.

[lduncan]

Pie, that comment was in reference to the fact that Alois and Brendon had obviously had a falling out.

Anyway, that's interesting on the GFO.

Fay, there is more to not using phosphate removers with zeovit than just the zeovit does it for you. Same thing with using ozone, and UV with it.