matthewY Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Main tank is going to be re setup in afew weeks time (once I finish painting the walls etc) and so i thought good opportunity to improve things while the tank is empty and theres space between teh wall and the tank.... So random question.... can a fresh water 300L tank be skimmed..... done some google research and theres afew skimmers designed for ponds etc and thye pictures of them show they work well in that situation.... has anyone had experience with skimming a fresh water tank and will there be benefits. In reality I cant afford a good skimmer so looking at the $150 or so range.... main setup will be (once cycled etc....) 300L - 350L planted tank 2400L canister filter (the cheap ones of trademe so prob perform less... but packed with bio noodles and some wool).... Discus (plan to add afew more to get to maybe 6 or so total) GBA's Cardinals co2 injection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paekakboyz Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 are you talking about a saltwater tank type skimmer or the attachment you can add to your freshwater canister intake? I had an issue with an oily film building up on the surface of one of my freshwater tanks. Got a 'skimmer' that replaced the intake for my canister filter. It takes some water from below the surface (like the usual intake) and has a floating, grilled intake to collect from the surface as well. It did the trick but I broke down the tank and when I set it back up the problem had gone. I don't think a saltwater tank skimmer would be of any additional benefit in a freshwater tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwiplymouth Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Perhaps of these would do would do the job and cost very little. http://www.trademe.co.nz/Home-living/Pe ... 808115.htm or http://www.trademe.co.nz/Home-living/Pe ... 861371.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navarre Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I have looked into saltwater style skimmers in the past for freshwater tanks. On the net there are mixed reviews about how effective they are mainly due to surface tension I think. It would be trail and error as some people say they work and others dont. Navarre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewY Posted July 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 paekakboyz, originally looking at the salt water style ones.... I have seen the ones which attach themselfs to the intake and thought it would be pretty good in general (allow for more o2 to mix with teh water to feed the bacteria in the filter.... read that one of the biggest drawbacks on canister filters is they dont get feed enough o2 for teh filter to "grow", wet/dry filters try to help out in thsis pace and I think one of these addons would help too), but my thought was that a salt water style skimmer (if it works in fresh water) will try and remove the bad stuff before it needs to get into the filter, therefore avoiding the whole cycling process and easing the bio load on the main filter.... wheres teh addon ones just make sure that teh floating organics make it into teh filter (filter still needs to break down the stuff). I dont know much about reef tanks but figure the sump would work much like a huge canister filter and that the skimmer would remove the stuff from tank again easing the load on the sump. I'm trying to apply the same process to fresh water tank if its possible, mainly cos if want to stock lost of discus and have them happy but also gbs'a create a big mess that discus dont like.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewY Posted July 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 HI kiwiplymouth, the http://www.trademe.co.nz/Home-living/Pe ... 808115.htm looks pretty small :-( I woudlnt mind paying abit more for somethign abit bigger if efficiency of the skimmer is going to be better (again freshwater tank and all, bubbles need to be in the water long enough to get the organic stuff out or something????). the one I was thinking off was more like http://www.trademe.co.nz/Home-living/Pe ... 861361.htm Just dont wantn to spend that much money if its going to do nothing for the tank.... sounds like it could be worth a gamble if no one has tried it before.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewY Posted July 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I have looked into saltwater style skimmers in the past for freshwater tanks. On the net there are mixed reviews about how effective they are mainly due to surface tension I think. It would be trail and error as some people say they work and others dont. Navarre Did you end up picking one up, if so, what was your experiences with them? if I can avoid trial and error then it would be great (limited $$$ to try with :-) ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaNs Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 One major flaw here, with co2 injection you dont want to be skimming or disturbing the water that much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewY Posted July 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 One major flaw here, with co2 injection you dont want to be skimming or disturbing the water that much Is it usually one or the other or do people get away with both and if so, is the issue around stibility of the water? I'm guessing spray bars etc are still get used in co2 setups??? also, how do reef tanks do it, i thought they use co2 injection to control the ph? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewY Posted July 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I should add, I havent tested the co2 system out yet but my initial thoughts is that i would try and set it to the lowest rate it can go (10 or so bubbles / min) and put it through a diy reactor (inverted tube with water current going down adn co2 defuser at the bottom of tube)... I didnt like the idea of the tank dependent on co2 incase it goes wrong but I did like the idea of giving the plants an extra boost so maybe the co2 isnt a big factor??? but its currently in the plans.... Co2 system is based of sodastream bottle and a regulator with solidnoid which is attached to the timer for the lights....... maybe its the co2 system which woud end up doing nothing ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 A salt water skimmer wont work with fresh water, it just wont foam enough for how salt water skimmers are made. I guess it's possible to skim fresh water with a skimmer that's designed to do it, I understand skimmers were originally used at sewage treatment centers, but I have never seen a fresh water skimmer for sale. I'm no expert but I would think adding O2 rather than CO2 to the intake of you canister would be the way to go, after all wet/dry and trickle filters work so well because of the large amount air they supply to the bacteria. CO2 would make the water very acidic in the canister. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewY Posted July 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 A salt water skimmer wont work with fresh water, it just wont foam enough for how salt water skimmers are made. I think that answers it well, i think the ones for freashwater uses a needle disk or something (as you emntioned, I too have never seen freshwater skimmers here) but then they keep saying how counterflow skimmers work so much better and the ones designed for koi's seem to add bioballs or noodles and say it helps increase the time air contacts with the water.... next pay day i might see if i can pick up a cheap one to try out out, do some diy to it (maybe add groves into the water pump blades???, some noodles...) I can always resell It for cheap if it fails guess :-) If I do end up giving it a try i'll post the outcome here :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Most salt water skimmers have needle wheel pumps in them now, extra performance is gained by doing whats known as a "mesh mod", do a search on it for details but it basically involves replacing the impeller or needle wheel with a mesh disk that really chops the air up into fine bubbles. next pay day i might see if i can pick up a cheap one to try out You really get what you pay for with skimmers, a cheap one wont work well with salt water let alone fresh water. BTW a nasty cheap skimmer with pump will cost you well over $100, paying over the $300 range will get you into the okay cheap skimmer range To be honest IMO there are better ways to spend your money that will give you far better results. A sump with trickle tower for example. If you want to have a go with some leading edge stuff look into deep sand beds (DSB), these are really commonly used in marine tanks to reduce nitrates, there is no reason they wouldn't be just as effective in fresh water. And they are very cheap and simple to DIY. Algae filters are also making a big come back in salt water, again there is no reason they wouldn't work just was well in fresh water, they reduce both nitrates and phosphates, and again are cheap and simple to DIY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewY Posted July 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Just did a quick google on deep sand beds (without reading much).... I woudl have thought the problem with that is you generate dead spots and that abd bateria will form unless you move the sand oftern. I'll research more tonight and see. All I'm really trying to do is create a bigger buffer between a healthy tank and a bad tank for my discus. Had afew die on me in the past and it really sucks :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navarre Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I never went ahead with my fresh water skimmer Along with others here they seem contraindicated in a fresh system that has CO2 as in these systems you want less airation not more...to a point. Also it seems that in Salt tanks CO2 is bubbled thru other media to alter chemistry (never kept a saltie so not 100% here) ie sea shells or Calcium carbonate or something to alter both pH and Ca content. Finally some people suggest that better results are gained from other types of filtration such as FSB filters UV and denitryfing coils which are all able to work on Fw tanks and are remarkably less expensive. BTW I run sumps on nearly all my tanks and I find them great but not on any plant tanks which all have internal filtration or canister filtration or no filtration at all. Sorry I cant be of more help Navarre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navarre Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I never went ahead with my fresh water skimmer Along with others here they seem contraindicated in a fresh system that has CO2 as in these systems you want less airation not more...to a point. Also it seems that in Salt tanks CO2 is bubbled thru other media to alter chemistry (never kept a saltie so not 100% here) ie sea shells or Calcium carbonate or something to alter both pH and Ca content. Finally some people suggest that better results are gained from other types of filtration such as FSB filters UV and denitryfing coils which are all able to work on Fw tanks and are remarkably less expensive. BTW I run sumps on nearly all my tanks and I find them great but not on any plant tanks which all have internal filtration or canister filtration or no filtration at all. Sorry I cant be of more help Navarre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I'll research more tonight and see. All I'm really trying to do is create a bigger buffer between a healthy tank and a bad tank for my discus. Had afew die on me in the past and it really sucks :-( If thats what you're trying to achieve there are better ways to do it than that. I'd look into setting up a continuous drip system to change ~10% of the water daily, that will help keep the nitrates low and the water clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 Just did a quick google on deep sand beds (without reading much).... I woudl have thought the problem with that is you generate dead spots and that abd bateria will form unless you move the sand oftern. The point of having a DSB is to create an area of no oxygen (or dead spot), this is the same way that denitrifying coils work, the bacteria that live in this environment consumes nitrate and produces nitrogen gas which harmlessly disperses into the air. Live rock in salt water tanks works the same way, the bacteria lives deep in the porous rock with no oxygen. In a salt water tank you would aim to have zero nitrates at all times. The only time these bacteria become 'bad' are when the sand beds are disturbed. Do some research on remote deep sand beds (RDSB) or "sand bed in a bucket". Finally some people suggest that better results are gained from other types of filtration such as FSB filters UV and denitryfing coils which are all able to work on Fw tanks and are remarkably less expensive. I agree to a point but each of these targets a different area, FSB's are great at do the ammonia to nitrite to nitrate part of the nitrogen cycle, but you still end up left with nitrates which have to be removed somehow, usually with water changes. UV just kills stuff, bacteria, parasites, algae's. As I said denitrifying coils do the same/similar job to a deep sand bed, but are far more expensive and complicated to use. All a DSB needs is... some sand, if you want to have a fancy expensive setup, you buy a bucket and pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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