chimera Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Does anyone use an Aquaniveau electronic Auto top-up controller? If so, any likes/dislikes with them? Things to watch out for? or see details of it at the bottom of this page: http://www.stm-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Aqua_Medic.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 i doubt anyone will have one. i use tunze osmolator, works very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted June 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 so then Alois, what do you think of the price for it? About 70 pounds or about 200 bucks NZL. What are the Tunze worth? (My grandparents are on holiday in the UK so was going to make use of their visit and grab me one!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 I see an issue with 'auto top off' is that the are float switch (or technology that works like a float switch using light sensors). Not only can this fail, but it means it doses all of the time (whenever the level is to low). This has an advantage and disadvantage. If you are dosing kalkwasser, then adding the kalk soultion to the tank during lights on, when the PH is highest, this addition can further spike the PH. this is why most people choose to dose during lights off, as the Kalk can be uses to help keep the PH higher as it drops during the night. There are many examples of RC of people who have had 'auto top off' systems stick, and floods, death etc are the result. I choose to use a limited size resivour, timer and peri pump. You will find that you evaporation is fairly constant. I dose 6.3 litres a night, and my SG sits on .025 and has done for over 12 months. So it works. It means that if the timer or pump sticks on, the worse that can happen is the resivour is emptied, but its not big enough that it would cause a major problem (can't overflow the sump). I am happy with this system and will do the same again with the larger tank. My 2 cents. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetskisteve Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 ditto, told you pies would let you know chimera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Well not with these systems. The aqua medic and the tunze have two float switches, so if the first switch fails then you have a second float switch which will shut the dosing pump off. also the Tunze system has a loud alarm which warms you if the water has gone past the second float switch. Also my dosing pump only doses slowly ,so worst case; it would take all day to overflow my sump. Dosing kaltwasser all day is better as you get a consistant PH all the time, dosing only at night could cause a spike in KH/calcium/PH So in fact for the system to fail would be like winning Lotto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted June 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 hmmmmm now im lost.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicks Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Dosing kaltwasser all day is better as you get a consistant PH all the time, doisng only at night could cause a spike in KH/calcium/PH [/b Chemistry is not quite right Reefs, I can remember having this conversation before when you dismissed dosing Kalk 24/7. have you changed your mind??? You will can get a Ph spike during the day if using Kalk, but only small amounts of Ca & KH are added so these will not spike. as you are adding Kalk with a approx Ph12 during the day when your ph should be around 8.4. this is when you have a spike. At night the production of carbolic acids (Co2 + H2O) in the water will reduce the Ph to below 8 so adding Kalk helps to keep your ph up. This is why Kalk is good to add a night especially if you use a Calcium reactor as as it will help to mop up Co2. I use a dosing pump to dose my top-off water(Kalk)as even if it sticks on or any other mishap it can only dose a very small amount of water and no more than what is in the resevior. Float switches can be bought from Accurate Instuments in penrose for about $70. the are used in water tanks ect. You have to do the wiring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted June 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 perhaps it's something to do with his tank being 2,000 litres that dosing during the day doesn't make an ounce of difference!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 NICKS , The conversation we had was about dosing co2 24/7 not kaltwasser. Do i detect a tiny bit of alzheimers. or do i have it? My ph gets to about 8.20 max during the day so dosing has not raised my PH much, I have found it impossible to raise the Ph above 8.2. I think a Ph of between 7.8 and 8.2 is fine as I have found not benefits in raising ph above these levels. Also kaltwasser has to be used up within 1-2 days as it will go off unless it is stirred every so often. There is also a theory that using kaltwasser and calcium reactor is a waste of time as they counter each other by adding too much ions in the aquarium. I think that is you only have a few SPS corals then dosing kaltwasser and adding a bit of calcium/buffers will be fine , calcium reactors are only required for tanks that have lots of SPS corals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 I was talking about adding KALKWASSER/FRESHWATER not running c02 and a KALKREAKTOR. and thats what you were talking about? If not I dissagree with EVERYTHING you said Altzhimers is your dood, unless you think we were talking about using a top off system to switch on and fill the tank through the CA reactor. *** Too many people run very successful systems using both KALKWASSER and CA REACTORS together. Doesn't seem to be any reason to NOT use kalkwasser. I personally don't think kalk is doing any damage to my tank with the CA reactor, however I would also be surprised if its doing much good either. I use both, anyone else with a CA reactor use Kalk as well? I am sure Alois does, Steve does, Nick does. Hrmmm the 'ayes' have it. Too many Ions.... How many Ions is too many? The more ions the better! (whatever they are). You can never have too many ions. And if you did, you just use an ion filter to take them out. Better to have too many than not enough? An ion in the hand is worth 2 in the bush. Ions is as ions does. A rolling ion gathers no moss (or algae in this case). My PH sits at 8.3 daytime, falls to 8.0 low. If I am doseing kalkwasser during the night (which I do 90% of the time), all that happens is that the PH falls slower when I am using it, but the top and bottom figures don't change. I suspect I could change it buy stiring the reactor again halfway through dosing, but I don't see that a change of .3 is a biggie, and no worse than most others. New larger tank should hold the PH low reading a little higer I hope (say 8.3 - 8.1) but won't know till its up and running. Pion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted June 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 errr,... thats dude, dood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetskisteve Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 carla loves to iron...........NOT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 I think I would tend to believe (Dipl. Ing. (FH) Lars Sebralla). He has the big letters in front of his name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted June 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 I have big letters after my name (NDBC, MCP, CCEA, CCNA, SPS) but I dont know shit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Chimera, that could be in your case, However Lars Sabella knows what he is talking about and looking at his tank I tend to respect his opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted June 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 was just being a smart arse Im still a little confused on whether I actually need an auto top-up though. The way I was considering doing the auto top-up was to have it in a separate holding tank for RODI mixed with kalk rather than in the sump itself. Then, have a dosing pump that pumps from the holding tank to the sump on a timer (running over night). The question here though is can an auto top-up system turn a tap (the tap that feeds the RODI) on and off to keep the top-up water in the holding tank always full? That way I only need to add kalk powder once a week or so to the holding tank. This is the way I was thinking in the first place, rather than having the auto top-up in the sump itself. Does this make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Chimera. Yes you can do this, and I think this is the better was to do it. HOWEVER... I see 3 reasons why not to use 'auto refill' of the resivour. 1. If the float switch sticks, the resivour will overflow. 2. The resivour is of limited size. This I see as an advantage because if you top-off system sticks, you can only put as much water as is in the resivour, otherwise you could dose freshwater forever (bad). 3. RO units are not designed to be turned on and off all the time. This lessons the life of the RO membrane. Ideally you would run it for prolonged periods, consistant on and offs are bad (according to the instructions that came with my RO unit). If you decide you still want to plumb in RO water directly, then I would suggest dumping the idea of a 'resivour' that size and just get a KALKSTIRER. Steve knows where there is a good DIY one for sale I think (Chris B?). Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted June 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Cheers Mark. However... There is little chance of the float sticking as the one I was looking at is an optical float sensor. I believe if the unit fails, then no water is dosed at all. The RO unit wont be turned on and off all the time as I would put a solenoid AFTER the unit, so pressure is maintained to the membrane at all times. What advantages does the Kalkstirrer offer me over dosing by auto top-up and dosing pump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Not if the sensor sticks on. Yout right, the chances of a problem are low/remote. However the stories around of people who have had problems scared me. Most lost everything, nothing survived, not even bacterria. Kalkstirers are usually 'sealed', and removes some technology. So you have the float switch connected directly to the peri pump or solinoid (or both). Does the solinod provide pressure to the RO unit? I didn't think it di, because if the solinoid is plumbed into the unit after the membrane then your 'runoff' water will still be flowing (forever!). If it goes on the front of the membrane, this won't keep pressure on the membrane either and as soon as the solinoid tribs the membrane gets hammered. Solinoids are expensive. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Yes I agree there are people on reef central that have had problems, however most of these units have been DIY, so you cant compare this with a proper systems like tunze,aquamedis,iks, I can’t see any problem hooking the top up to the main water supply at all using proper top up units. The tunze for example has as optical sensor, if this fails it has a back up sensor so it will turn off the dosing pump or solinoid valve. also the tunze system stops dosing if it runs for longer than 20 mins continuously, So there are so many safety features compared to the DIY stuff. If you hook up the tunze unit to the mains you have to make sure that the water coming out from the mains is reduced to a drip or two a second, so as a safety feature if the tunze fails the water coming out of the mains will only drip out and you will fix the problem before it overflows your sump. If you use the top up from the mains then you wont need a dosing pump only a solinode valve. cost about $100 for a solinoid. The Tunze is certainly a unit I would recommend. I certainly would not be taking any changes on my tank so I generally stay away from DIY as I have too much to stock to lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted June 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 I dont think you're getting what I mean Pies... correct me if Im wrong but it will look like this: TAP -> RODI -> SOLENOID <-> AUTO-TOPUP <-> HOLDING TANK -> DOSING PUMP -> SUMP Auto-topup controls dosing to the holding tank (keeping water at maximum level ONLY when level drops to a minimum level - need 2 floats) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 chimera, would it not be better to do it as follows. tap- water from mains gate valve- reduce flow rate into rodi unit solenoid valve- turn water on/off rodi- filters water autotop up- controls solenoid valve sump why have a holding tank and a dosing pump, just adds up to extra costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 I agree with Alios. I think you are just adding things in becuase you can, not sure if you will get any additional benifits other than spending more money. Alois, you don't like DIY is that why you took that DIY skimmer you had on your tank off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted June 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Because the RODI membrane apparently doesnt like being turned on/off all the time (or a reduction in water pressure would mean the same thing). By maintaining high water pressure to the RODI unit and controlling water flow from the auto-topup to the solenoid AFTER the RODI unit maintains pressure in the filter and keeps the holding tank topped up (would have a minimum level too so it only tops up when it reaches a low level rather than on/off constantly). Then, a separate dosing pump drip feeds the sump (water/kalk) from the holding tank overnight from a timer. This obviously means that I have to guestimate the amount of evaporation from the sump and work out the literage to be dosed, but at least it's a set amount of water, if the sump leaked it wouldn't indefinately dose fresh water into the tank. This also saves me adding fresh RODI water to the holding tank every week as its done by the auto top-up. the way i see it, this should work exactly as i need it. Of course, 2 x auto top-up's would make sense - one for the sump (albeit the concerns of tank leakage) So my use for auto top-up is different than what its true purpose is - for topping up RODI in the holding tank, not topping up water in the sump. It's not "adding for the sake of it" Pies, its adding to reduce maintenance, to me that is a big benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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