Pies Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Yes I did have this same thread before, however this one is for a new main tank. I have purchased a new house and will be moving into it very soon. So its time for a new tank. Moving the tank will be 'rip tear and bust', I won't have time to make it pretty. But I am going to take the time to get this tank right... 1st off a remote sump. The tank will be located in the family room/kitchen with the sump bellow 1 storey in the garage. YAY! This means all the mess can be contained downstairs. It also means I can automate water changes and plumb directly into our waste water. The tank. Size is still in the conceptual stages location isnt. It will be in the corner of a room, with the front and left side viewable, the rear and right side hidden. I am contemplating a tank 1800L (6ft) x 700 high (current tank 650, any higer is just to deep, may even stick at 650) x 850-1000 wide. Width is how to get the most out of aquascaping, but because of the way the tank will be situated, its hard to imagine being able to makeit any wider. I intend to use my existing 2 streams for circulation + 2x sea swirls + 2 closed loops. I will again use a plastic egg crate for a 'reef rack' which helps circulation under the rock, the closed loops will also help with this. I will again use a Durso style stand pipe system, but will have an overflow at just one end, this way the viewable end will not be obstructed by an overflow. 'IF' I can get the glass 'notched' I will use external overflows, but not sure if glass notching is possible through my guy, will see soon. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 That aquascaping looks famillar. But with the added width, you should get a much better depth effect. Glass notching? I would probably stay away from that, the fingers will become brittle with age, and even with 10 - 12mm glass could break without too much trouble. I think a acrylic overflow would be safer. Pack in the closed loops too, helps reduce the dependance on powerheads for flow, I recon. Keeps more hardware out of view as well. This looks very exciting. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Hey Pies, A few questions for you (Im a beginner at this) I have a 4 foot reef tank with about 50kg of live rock (and want to add another 50kg of live rock)and about 8 fish and 3 shrimps. It only has a handful of corals so far but want to make it a fully fledged reef tank in time. Its built into my wall in my lounge (sacrifice a bedroom for the tank/walkinwardrobe and ensuite The tank has an external sump with deltec protein skimmer and eheim 1060 return pump. Ive started drip feeding kalkwasser as per Nicks recommendation for the last couple of weeks (and have noticed an improvement in the corals). I want to add a calcium reactor at some stage in the near future (am keeping an eye out for a 2nd hand one) and am also going to move the sump under the house soon to provide more room and reduce noise. I noticed you mention doing the egg-crate thing for better circulation. How important do you think this is? (as opposed to rock sitting on the bottom of the tank) Also, what are "closed loops?". I dont think I have enough circulation in my tank at the moment (only has 2 x eheim powerheads at either end of the tank) so want to get a wave maker to give some better water flow. I will probably also plumb up a couple of external eheims to give additional water circulation. Got any hints/tips on anything else to reduce dead spots? (as I notice my sand gets 'brown' patches - looks like algae - only in the middle where i think water movement is at its worst) Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted April 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Hi Chimera Your tank is looking good, I WISH I could have an in-wall tank, you lucky sod! To answer your questions... I suspect you don't have enough water circulation either. In-tank power heads, Tunze Streams (kinda like super charged power heads) are good attitions. Have a talk to NickS as I know he needs to add flow to his tank too. Aim for at least 10x the tank volume an hr, and you will be fine, the 'SPS' corals require a little more. "Closed loops" - This is a name for plumbing in a water pump (like your sump return pump) into the tank, but having it draw water and put it back in from the same tank. This way, if the pump is powered off it doesn't leak. Also it is not effected by 'head pressure'. Another benifit is that the pump is external to the tank, making it easier to maintain it and reducing heat transfer. Closed loops are VERY popular with new setup tanks as drilling holes through the glass means you circulation pumps are hidden, much better than in-tank power heads. Egg Crate Reef Rack - Its not nessessary, but I think it does help. One of those things that can't do any harm, is cheap and a good option to consider when setting up a new tank. I wouldn't nessessarly rip all you rock out to do it though. With the closed loops running water into the space under the 'rack' it helps stop dead spots and keeps detritus suspended for the skimmer and filteration equipment to remove. Before you look at a CA reactor buy a CA test kit. You have lots/mostly soft corals, and they don't need that much CA. Keep up with the kalkwasser as per NickS instruction and see if you actually need any more calcium. If your looking for a second hand unit I would talk with JetSkiSteve, if its for sale he will most likley know about it. Same deal with live rock, Steve has access to some great rock at the moment for a fair price. I would love to see some more pics of your tank, its looks great. Good luck! Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Cheers for the reply, appreciate it. Just to add to my terminology, what are "SPS" corals? Also, where do you buy Tunze streams and what are they worth? I think I gotta contact my mates in the US and UK and get me some cheap gear. Its so expensive here!!! Hmm, I wonder who's coming home shortly The eheim I have sits in the sump and pumps a little over 2,000 litres per hour so is doing about 7 times the tanks volume per hour. Still that is only for filtering and still only its 'rated' capacity. Whether its actually working at that rate or not I dont know. I do need better water flow coz you can pretty much see it - the powerheads seem to get clogged fairly quick and dont perform optimally - after a few days I can see detritus on the sand at the bottom of the tank (or rather minor algae) Will additional water flow cure this issue? The closed loop - sounds like I have that already (or rather similar anyway) I want to plumb up circulation pumps to keep detritus suspended (or hopefully float it) to run into the builtin overflow then down to the sump. Is drilling holes possible in the side of your tank?!!! I guess this goes hand in hand with the crate idea, keeping some good flow at the bottom of the tank. I assume with the water circulation, it just passes air from an external pump through hoses into the tank to circulate the water rather than syphoning water out then back in again? Sent steve a PM to see what he can do, cheers! and speaking of in-wall tanks... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=236668 http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=239501 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted April 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Chiemra There are different types of corals, hard corals (stoney) are often referred to as SPS and LPS corals. SPS - Small Polyped Stoney, LPS Large Polyped Stoney. Acropora (staghorn coral), birds nest, montipora are all examples of SPS corals. SPS corals have small polyps, approx 1mm in size or smaller. LPS corals are the stoney corals that look like soft but are not! Bubble coral, Torch coral, brain corals, frogspawns, hammer corals are all examples of LPS corals. According to our friend Eric Bourneman (Author of a book called 'Corals for the Aquauirum and is VERY good) sais there really is no scientific difference between so called LPS & SPS corals. Eric is smart so lets just assume its true. But it is a useful term to help seperate VERY HARD corals (SPS) from easier coras (LPS) corals. All stoney coral typically requires better water conditions, light and waterfows than other types of common coral (leathers, mushrooms, zooanthids). Phew done that to death! Equipment is expensive EVERYWHERE not just NZ. We have been pretty lucky here in NZ but talk to Steve, he knows some people who I am sure can help you out with most equipment and even some stock. He may also be able to get you a good price on some Streams if you want them. BEWARE the big streams in a small tank like yours will be a little 'dangerous'. hahahaha Streams are VERY effecticve. Power heads shouldn't 'clog up' however so don't be afraid to use them, its just that they looks a bit unslightly. But this can't really be avoided easily. Good luck Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 thanks for the info, might look at getting that book did you check out those links above? amazing setups. will give steve a call early next week. thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted April 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 I have seen the weatherson tank many times, its a great blueprint, good attitude, good workmanship and and real perfectionist. I would use his as a blueprint for me if I was doing inwall. I like the space he made around the table so you can stand up and reach into the tank. 10/10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted April 29, 2004 Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 you aint wrong, the guys a perfectionist! might take some time to study his tank filtration and see what I can design myself! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted April 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2004 http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showt ... did=271539 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted May 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted May 3, 2004 Report Share Posted May 3, 2004 sun light from that window wont be a problem will it?... let me guess your response "i own curtains" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted May 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2004 Why would sunlight be a problem? Sunlight = free light! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted May 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2004 I have found that light spread is more important than light intensitiy, corals being brown on the sides buy purple/pink/blue on top. So am I right in thinking that a spread of light is more important than the 'power of the light'? QUESTION 1. 400watt SE vs. 250DE. My own experance with 250 watt DE is very good, the light my tank and my SPS very well and I am happy with them. I was thinking of this: Am I better off with 5x 250watt DE or 3x 400watt SE? I suspect that the 5x250 watt is going to give me better results than 3x 400? If I am wrong please tell me! I am currently leaning towards the 350 option based on the efficiently of the 250 DE vs 400 SE. The SE would be easier to build but the DE should give me better results? I have spoken to many people on this board (Lisa and a few others) who have upgraded from 250 to 400 and not seen much if any difference, can this be true? QUESTION 2. A reflector for my 5x250 system. Currently I have A similar designed reflector, some sort of '3rd party' DIY type of jobbie. Its very good though. I was thinking of something like this: I can't afford much more than 1200 watts, so my choices are 3x 400 or 5x 250. I just want the best result in the end. Help a brother out? Any other advantages of 400 over 250 or vice a versa would be appreciated. Ohhh tank will be 2100Lx900Wx700H Thanks for your help. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted May 3, 2004 Report Share Posted May 3, 2004 Here is a summary from what I have read in the past few weeks, much I suspect you know but I'll add what I've learnt just incase others want a read... Light is absorbed and scattered by water molecules and dissolved substances or suspended particles, so light covering a larger surface area should provide a more even "spread" around the tank than more intense light in fewer areas. More less-intense lights are better than fewer more-intense lights. The intensity of light shining onto a given area is measured in "lux" or lumens (lamps emission) per square metre - this is what you need to base your measurements on. Find out what lux should be for a reef tank and work backwards from that. Equation is e1 x a1 + e2 x a2 + etc.. where e = the lux required x the area to be lit (in your case, 1.9 sq metres) x correction factor. the correction factor is dependant on water and depth, eg: clear colourless water = 2, over 1 metre depth = 3 etc. i'd give yours a 3 since its close to 1 metre and its salt (more dissolved minerals) say lux for reef should be 10,000 then thats 10,000 x 1.9 x 3 which is 57,000. that means total light needed is 57,000 lumens. find out how many lumens each light you have emits and work out if you have enough from that (based on 10,000 lux - you might want to check what this should be for reef tanks) Regarding reflectors, the reflector should be as big as possible - the more light that can be reflected onto the water surface the better. Best materials for this are polished aluminium, stainless or enamelled steel, mirrored glass or plastic. I think your design on the reflector is perfect, the gentle curvuture means light is reflected over the water surface evenly. The hood and light needs to be as close to the water as practical to ensure minimum loss of intensity. The intensity of the light is only to a certain depth. White light decreases most rapidly whereas blue-green light penetrates farthest into water (up to about 100m at sea) Therefore, generally more white full spectrum light is required in proportion to blue-green light. Reflection from the waters surface decreases the amount of actual light penetrating the water. Further more, surface movement by waves and bubbles can reflect up to a third of the incident light. Problem is, in a reef tank water turbulence on the surface is a good thing (circulation of nutrients, removal of waste, gas exchange between air/water etc) so its a catch-22, you need to provide more intense light than with a tank with no water flow. Catch-22 again, more intense light (especially hallides) produce intense heat which can heat up the aquarium, therefore need some form of cooling system so I'd add a couple of fans in your hood design to compensate for this! Umm, thats about as much as I know - hope some of the theory should point you in the right direction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted May 4, 2004 Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 i think you need 8x250w , the tank is wider than my tank.. i can only keep acros under the halides, the sides of my tank is quite dark without t5, so i run t5s. i would design two hoods with 4 halides in each , same as your drawings. and run them next to each other. thats 2000w. yahoo. you will get much better coverage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted May 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 How is my 'theory'. My current tank is 5ft and uses 2x 250watt, I get good results buy know the tank would benifit from more light. So if I go to 7ft (only 2 ft longer) but add 3 more halides, I am in effect increasing the amount of light I have based on what I currently have? My tank is currently 700 front to back, so only 200 more, which I was hoping would benifit from the staggered bulb array. The tank will be 100% stoney coral, aiming for the shallow lagoon 'look'. Reef - I think your are right about the lighting (needing some more) but I just can't afford to run any more light than that, simple case of money. If I can find a sponser I would change my mind. Why do you think 2 reflector/hood thingies would be better than 1? I would have done 2 but the tank being 7ft is an awkward size for 2. What bulb config would you use? 2x2 in each reflector? I have 4x 5ft T5s, which I was planing on using just for 'blue'. Does anyone know where I can get wiring diagrams for my DEs? Does anyone know where to buy cheap/reasonable ballasts, ignighters and lamp holders? Piemania Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted May 4, 2004 Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 Pies, if you want diy'ish rather than pre-wired, probably the cheapest place to get magnetic ballasts is "Lamp Specialists" or Ideal Electrical. ATCO make a range of them, along with ignitors. If I recall correctly, ignitors are around $25 each, and ballasts $80-$90 (that was for 400W, so 250W may be cheaper). You will also want a PF correction cap (this will help minimise your power bill) these run about $10. I assume that these places also stock the ceramic bulb sockets as well. I have no idea how much these are, but i don't think they are particularly cheap, maybe $20? Wiring diagrams can be found on the actual ballast (usually printed on the metal laminates. But if you can find one, I can send you one. It is pretty straight foward, You don't have to worry about polarity when it comes to the bulbs 'cause it's all AC. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted May 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Thanks for the offer Layton, I may well cash in on it. I have found a supplier of ballasts, 250watt HQI, pulse start. Wired for 230 watt in sealed box with 3pin power attached and external 2m lead (apparantly any longer than 2m and they can have problems starting the bulbs). Ballasts are designed for BLV and like, which means should be fine for all HQI type bulbs. Have decided on 250 watters, simple a case of better value for power consumption. 5 of them should light the tank better than 3 400s, which is a similar wattage. I had a good talk with Alois last night who has a similar size tank to the one I am planing, and had some good advice (thanks Al), but ultimalty money is a factor too and I just can't afford to run as many bulbs as I would like (8), so 5 will have to do. So now I am just waiting to take possession of the house so I can get the tank, stand etc built and delivered. Also looking into floor strentgthing, and a dedicated 30amp circut with RCD to avoid power issues like I have now (power being tripped). Have also found a 2200va UPS which I hope to have reconed and connected soon too, this will simply run the return pump. Return pump. May have a line on a half horsepower pump (JetSkiSteve) otherwise I hope my exisitng Iwaki (RDLT30) wil lbe enough for the short term. IF ANYONE has a large pump (Iwaki or grunfos prefurred) please let me know, I am in the market to move some water. Piemania Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted May 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Thanks for the offer Layton, I may well cash in on it. I have found a supplier of ballasts, 250watt HQI, pulse start. Wired for 230 watt in sealed box with 3pin power attached and external 2m lead (apparantly any longer than 2m and they can have problems starting the bulbs). Ballasts are designed for BLV and like, which means should be fine for all HQI type bulbs. Have decided on 250 watters, simple a case of better value for power consumption. 5 of them should light the tank better than 3 400s, which is a similar wattage. I had a good talk with Alois last night who has a similar size tank to the one I am planing, and had some good advice (thanks Al), but ultimalty money is a factor too and I just can't afford to run as many bulbs as I would like (8), so 5 will have to do. So now I am just waiting to take possession of the house so I can get the tank, stand etc built and delivered. Also looking into floor strentgthing, and a dedicated 30amp circut with RCD to avoid power issues like I have now (power being tripped). Have also found a 2200va UPS which I hope to have reconed and connected soon too, this will simply run the return pump. Return pump. May have a line on a half horsepower pump (JetSkiSteve) otherwise I hope my exisitng Iwaki (RDLT30) wil lbe enough for the short term. IF ANYONE has a large pump (Iwaki or grunfos prefurred) please let me know, I am in the market to move some water. Piemania Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted May 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 More planing. Closed loop circulation for the tank. Holes drilled through the bottom of the tank, using 1262 ehiem pumps. The loops exits will be 20mm pressure piping, with small holes drilled through like a spray bar. Additional circulation will be provided by at least 2x 6100 Tunze Stream pumps. Return from the sump will come from a large pump (not got it yet) and will be returned through 2x Sea Swirls. I may look at adding 1 more Stream, or something, not sure yet. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 pies - quick question for you. i've just got hold of a 2nd sump and want to add an overflow to it (to basically run sump/refugium) q is: how or where do you go to get a hole drilled into the glass??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted May 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Glass shop... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 no shit, thought you might have had a special drill bit for it. where do you get the piping that sits either side of the glass then? is this something you can simply source from a hardware store? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted May 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 The only place I have found the bits you are looking for is from 'Mico Plumbing'. Not all plumbing stores carry it, best to go one that does 'irrigation' as thats what they are for. I think they are called 'tank valves' or something. They are BLACK and made by a compnay called 'HANSEN'. If you have trouble I can get you the Mico part number next time I am out there. Remember if you are using a 'stand pipe' system, the top stand pipe should be larger than the hole, so you will need an adapter e.g. from 25mm-30mm. Thats what I use 25mm hole, 30mm stand pipe. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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