Unwell Damsel?

[wasp]

The steps you have taken above are all the right things, all you can really do now is wait and hope.

One thing, when they are covered in whitespot they have trouble maintaining their osmotic balance as salt from the higher salinity water outside keeps creeping in by osmosis through the holes. It is often this that eventually kills them.

Reducing salinity will help the fish and also make it feel better. If it was in a fish only system you could reduce salinity down to about 1.016, or even lower, which would enhance the fish chance of survival. But because you have invertebrates that is not an option, but salinity could be reduced over 2 or 3 hours to 1.022. It is only a small measure but every little thing can help. It is really a case of trying to keep the fish alive as long as possible to allow it to start resisting the whitespot.

[tHEcONCH]

I have a cycled portable 80 litre marine hospital tank you are welcome to borrow today if you wish - I'll PM you my phone number (although moving the fish might cause more stress)

[wasp]

The way to do it would be to put water in from the origional tank, and some cured rock, both for filtration plus a hiding place for the fish so he will feel comfortable. Just 1/2 fill the tank. Then over a 3 day period add fresh water to reduce salinity to 1.013.

Don't fresh water dip the fish, this can have some limited effect with marine velvet, but does not kill cysts of ich irritans.

Just moving the fish can help because if the rock comes from a different tank, there will be no new parasites to keep infesting it, at least until the ones that are on it complete their lifecycle. So provided he is not already too far gone, a cure using this method is on the cards.

BTW I once read an article about a completely chemical free way to treat fish for whitespot, the fish are moved each 3 days to a new tank. This is less than the whitespot need to complete their lifecycle so the fish does not get reinfested and gets cured. From memory they said this only has to be done 3 times, although I have seen whitespot cysts last longer than that so a bit more time may be needed.

BTW if you do put the fish in a very low salinity, when you return it to normal salinity, do it slowly, over at the least a week and preferably longer. Fish can tolerate salinity being reduced faster than what they can salinity being raised.

[Fmxmatt]

Cheers Wasp, Conch

I will creep the salinity down to 1.022 tonight (Needs to be a couple of hours while I do this?)

[tHEcONCH]

BTW I once read an article about a completely chemical free way to treat fish for whitespot, the fish are moved each 3 days to a new tank. This is less than the whitespot need to complete their lifecycle so the fish does not get reinfested and gets cured. From memory they said this only has to be done 3 times, although I have seen whitespot cysts last longer than that so a bit more time may be needed.

I've done similar in freshwater tanks by doing massive daily water changes to remove the tomites - works well (although is labour intensive, to say the least)

[tHEcONCH]

Cheers Wasp, Conch

I will creep the salinity down to 1.022 tonight (Needs to be a couple of hours while I do this?)

Slower the better - just take half a bucket of water out in one advert break, then replace it with freshwater in the next - keep going until you are done

[wasp]

I will creep the salinity down to 1.022 tonight (Needs to be a couple of hours while I do this?)

It's not a huge drop in salinity so you could do it in one hit if you have to, but it will be stressful for some things, spinning it out over a longer time frame would be better. Basically you would remove around 10% of the water, then top up with fresh. Some invertibrates start getting into trouble at 1.021, so don't overdo it. 1.022 is OK though, some people keep their tanks at that all the time, although personally i wouldn't recommend it.

I've done similar in freshwater tanks by doing massive daily water changes to remove the tomites - works well (although is labour intensive, to say the least)

Wow, that's devotion! Although I guess it would be easier in FW than SW.

[Fmxmatt]

I am assuming that this new bout of whitespot would be the 2nd cycle. The BT has had brown spots the last few days which I also assume (after the conch gave me some info on it) were the burst whitespot cysts.

My other fish seem fine. What I'm unsure about, is whether or not its worth hospitalising the BT. If I can be extremely vigilant and keep water params 100% under control, providing the BT survives, shouldn't the whitespot die out? Or will the BT forever catch whitespot due to its immune system being comprimised from the last cycle?

So if I haven't made any sense, what I'm saying is, that from how I see it, the Blue Tang is the only fish which is keeping the whitespot alive as it is the only fish which is catching it, should I remove it to try and fix it, or will I successfully be able to get the immunity of the Blue Tang up high enough that it wont catch the next cycle?

[tHEcONCH]

So if I haven't made any sense, what I'm saying is, that from how I see it, the Blue Tang is the only fish which is keeping the whitespot alive as it is the only fish which is catching it, should I remove it to try and fix it, or will I successfully be able to get the immunity of the Blue Tang up high enough that it wont catch the next cycle?

You are unlikely to be able to restore its immunity whilst it is in the main tank, because it is already re-infecting itself despite the good work you have done keeping the water spot on. Put it into the hospital tank so you can clear your main tank of infection by removing the host, and also target the BT specifically for treatment.

[wasp]

The BT will develop immunity provided it survives long enough to do that.

Wether to remove for treatment or not is one of those catch 22 things, if he is already near death the move can finish him off.

But TheConches tank is probably well set up, and if the move can be done with little stress then it may be a good choice. But on the other hand if you just leave him he may recover.

It's just one of those unknowns.

[Fmxmatt]

I think its best to try the move. The way it was looking this morning I dont think it would survive much longer in the main tank anyway, and if I can prevent the other fish from being compromised, then its worth removing it (if I can catch it)

If I can't catch it (I dont want to kill it from the stress of trying to catch it so I wont try for long) then I'm just going to have to try my best to control it in the main display.

I dont want to be moving any liverock, or chasing the thing around the tank with the net as this will cause the other fish to stress and could have them come down with the whitespot aswel

Oh bugger, thinking about the above statement, maybe I shouldn't move it?

Catch22 as u said Wasp :-?

[tHEcONCH]

Move it

[Fmxmatt]

I will if I can catch it

[Fmxmatt]

Well i've tried all night, but can't catch it. Might look sick, but it sure dont act sick as soon as it sees the net. Before it even hits the water all the fish are gone from sight. They all obviously remember it... and who said fish only have a 3 second memory?!??

[jolliolli]

yip they sure are crafty. My discus are fine with my hands in the tank, fine with a gravel syphon in the tank but put a net within view of the tank and VROOOM they've all hidden

[tHEcONCH]

Well i've tried all night, but can't catch it. Might look sick, but it sure dont act sick as soon as it sees the net. Before it even hits the water all the fish are gone from sight. They all obviously remember it... and who said fish only have a 3 second memory?!??

Try it a couple of hours after lights out - fractionally easier :lol:

[Fmxmatt]

Tried to no avail. When the lights go out they all hide, and you cant see where they go

More of the fish have spots today

Going to try the UV Sterilizer way, catch the dirty buggers in the free floating stage.

And i'm gunna syphon the crap outta the sand tonight, hopefully catch some of the little shits in there.

Gunna weigh up whether or not its worth stressing the entire system this weekend by pulling all the corals and rock out to catch the fish. I think maybe consistancy & patience might be the better option.

Unless someone knows of a medication that is safe for inverts? I haven't been able to find one without copper

[tHEcONCH]

Tried to no avail. When the lights go out they all hide, and you cant see where they go

If you can move the corals into a holding tank for an hour or so, try removing all but a few inches of water and catch the fish. Alternatively catch the healthy ones and protect them from infection whilst you treat the main tank (maybe they can go for a holiday at Organism?) Oh yea, try swearing more! That always helps!

[Fmxmatt]

That sounds easy, but its not

Due to the fact I thought I'd create lots of "hiding spots" while I was aquascaping

The only way i'll be able to catch them is to remove all the liverock. Maybe I should just do that anyway, give the tank a bloody good syphoning and clean then do a new aquascape?

Then put all fish into my hospital tank and treat them all?

[tHEcONCH]

That sounds easy, but its not

Due to the fact I thought I'd create lots of "hiding spots" while I was aquascaping

The only way i'll be able to catch them is to remove all the liverock. Maybe I should just do that anyway, give the tank a bloody good syphoning and clean then do a new aquascape?

Then put all fish into my hospital tank and treat them all?

Maybe... I guess you might not have too many other options at this point.

[Fmxmatt]

Yeah bugger it, thats whats gunna happen!

I didn't like the cove setup anyway

Will my cleaner shrimp be ok to stay in the main tank?

Thinking about it, it wouldn't take long. Take water from main tank, add to hospital tank, add a bit of live rock, then slowly drop the SG to 1.017 (or should it be lower?)

I just hope my firefish doesn't decide that jumping is an option. Might have to put towels all round the tank so he doesn't end up on the hardwood floor and covered in fluff, poor little guy

[markoshark]

The only way i'll be able to catch them is to remove all the liverock. Maybe I should just do that anyway, give the tank a bloody good syphoning and clean then do a new aquascape?

Thats probably a good idea, will also help to get rid of any non-attached cysts

[Fmxmatt]

Whats the life cycle of the little bastards? 4 weeks? Just wondering how 7 fish are going to get on in a 70L tank for that period of time. Or would I be ok to leave the Damsel and Clowns in the main tank? (Neither are showing signs of the whitespot)

[wasp]

Well i think this is getting a little drastic, wouldn't be too much hurry to rush in to all that myself.

It will be ich irritans, if it was marine velvet you would have deaths by now. Death from ich irritans happens, but nearly all fish eventually recover, horrible as it is to watch while they have it. Can you post a pic of the BT so we can see how bad it is?

Also, if in the morning it is badly infested, is it slightly less infested by late afternoon?

[Fmxmatt]

Wasp, yes it does look better in the avo.

I'll get a pic of the tang tonight but it looks alot like this

Whats got my panicking is that my Yellow Tang now has body spots, and i've noticed fin spots on my Firefish and Bicolour Blenny

All are eating and I'm soaking brine shrimp in garlic for tonights feed.

Ur right, its bloody horrible to watch and its getting somewhat upsetting

The other thing that has me worried is that i'm fairly certain I can see the parasites in the substrate From what I've read, the longer I leave it, the worse its going to get as eventually it'll take over all the fish