tank stocking

[JackJackJack]

ok, finally think i have everything ready for fish. nitrate, nitrite and ammonia have all gone down to zero. this was nice and fast as i used cured live rock and the cycle was extremely small.

now for the fish.....

i am not sure about stocking marine tanks, what is the reccomended order to add things, corals, other invertibrates or fish first???

and unsure about stocking levels. my tank is 5'x2'x18" (112gallons 405L).

so far the fish i am looking at having eventually are

blue tang

yellow tang

2 ocellaris clowns (fake percula)

1 mandarin dragonet

2 bangii cardinals

is this too many fish?? one book i have says yes, the other says no... so im guessing its borderline?

also are these going to be fine with any shrimp or other invertibrates i keep???

also corals. i have a 400w metal halide, one NO 38w fluro and 2x NO 38w actinic fluoros, am i going to be able to keep any sps corals? what other limits do i have with this lighting?

sorry about all the questions!!

thankyou,

jack^3

[Desh]

Jack,

Your stock levels look fine, however the number of fish you can add also depend on the skimmer you have and the individual behaviour patterns of the fish. With powerful skimmer you can add more fish than you can with a less powerful skimmer (how ever there is an upper limit). Second point is the types of corals you want to keep. If you planning on keeping corals that requires optimum water quality (SPS) then add the least number of fish you can.

You should also give consideration to must have fish in the reef, by this I mean fish that keep pest and algae under control.

Reef aquariums need to be planned since your equipment dictate what you can and can not do.

Cheers

[lduncan]

How long has it been since the water and rock have been in the tank?

Layton

[Pies]

I agree stocking looks fine, infact for a 400L tank you will be able to throw a few more fish in there I would think.

Agree with Desh on corals. Since your a 1st time coral keeper, try soft corals 1st, avoid corals referred to as LPS corals and without all the technology the SPS corals will also be a challenge.

Add stock slowly, each new item goes through a 'mini cycle'. Clows are a good first choice as are the tangs. But only do 1 of them!

I too would like to know how long the tank has been 'wet'. If its less than 6 weeks I would still say wait, I know its hard but success hinges on patience. Add some softie corals or snails though so you have something to watch. Also how much rock in in there? I have over 150kg in mine, and its teaming with bugs (mandarin, scooter blenny, sixline). I feed the tank with a refugium too.

MANDARIN FISH - W A R N I N G - So many of these fish die because of a lack of food. Most of these fish starve, often because they are put into tanks without enough life (e.g. too early) or a tank not bigenough to support the population of food required to keep them alive. DO NOT STARVE THIS FISH TO DEATH. Wait at least 6 months or longer. Let your little pods and bugs establish themself and begin breeding. Get some more corals in there (corals attached to rocks) which will help with 'bio diversity'. They are a great fish and very friendly when well fed, but I have seen many VERY skinny ones and its awefull to see. The fish you have in your list will not be competing with the Mandarins food source.

Its good that you have a 'NEMO' fish list ;p A stocking plan is good. NOW STICK TO IT. Don't let the LFS twist your arm, stick to the plan. You have a lot to learn, so take it easy. Patience is the key.

How about posting some pictures, if you have access to a digital camera take zillions of photos. Great for later day comparsions and the best way to gague if something is growing or not.

LAYTON: How about some more pics of your tank (in focus!)

DESH: More pics of your tank would be nice too.

NICK: Hows yours going?

IRA: Lets see how its going, why not a few pics 'zoomed out' so we can see your plumbing etc too. Might be able to offer more help if we could see what your talking about.

Good luck

[Ira]

Great, Pies...Ask for pictures the day AFTER I give the camera back.

[lduncan]

I agree with Pies, forget the madarin fish for several months, it will more than likely die if added too soon. I once had a madarin fish and it only lasted 2 days before I saw it's tail sticking out of my female ocellaris clown's head! Must have been that time of month ;-)

My first addition, as far as fish goes, would be either the Bangai's or the Clown fish, I would probably lean towards the bangai's first, because they can be a bit shy initially when it comes to feeding time if newly introduced with other fish. Adding them first gives them a bit of time to settle in. Just a note on bangai's, in the last year or so, this fish has been prone to a bacterial disease, which seems to kill very quickly. Bangai's were previously known for being one of the more hardy marine fishes, but this reputation has been tarnished by this disease. I know a couple of importers here in NZ have had trouble with imports of these fish in particular, losing entire shipments to this disease.

As far as corals go, i would recomend something like capnella (kenya tree), or sacrophyton (toadstool leather), if you want to keep sps in the future I would stay clear of lobophytums, as many species are toxic towards sps. Star polyps are also another bullet proof coral to start with.

With the 400W halide you should be right to keep sps corals in the future.

I would still like to know how long you've had the water and rocks in the tank.

Layton

[JackJackJack]

tank has been 'wet' now for over 4 weeks. ammonia, nitrate and nitrite have been at 0 levels for 2 and a bit as nearly all the rock came from an existing aquarium. i will wait for the 6 week mark though, as ive been told this by others aswell.

the plan was to introduce the mandarin last, so it would be about a year from now until it was added, as i was told to let the co-pod population build for as long as possible. at the moment the tank has 70kg of live rock, and although its fairly full physically, i would like to add more slowly (2kg or so at a time, just as i see rocks at the LFS that i like) until i have closer to 100kg, also i have 10kg or so of dead rock in there that should hopefully have some life in it by the time this fish is added.

what other fish would you reccomend, as pies said i havent included any of the 'worker' fish, like gobies and etc.

reefing sure does test your patience sometimes though!!

thanks for all your help guys! books are great but its reassuring to get advice from people with experience.

Pies: yeah its a real 'nemo' fish list, haha, but i couldnt resist the colours of those fish!! i am working on a website similiar to yours at the moment to keep track of everything, i'll upload all that tomorow and with it i'll have some pics.

[lduncan]

Do you have a good supply of frozen mysis shrimp, or brine shrip near. Just thinking that the bangai's very rarely eat flake food. Tangs will also need an algae type food as well for optimum health, I feed spiralina flakes, but a lot of people use nori, the seaweed used to make sushi.

The reason I ask about food is that you can probably put in a small amount of shrimp in the tank every couple of days, (even though you have no fish yet) this will help to slowly ramp up the bioload on the tank, until you get your fish. It will help establish a larger population of bacteria ready for when you add your first fish, so the resulting "mini cycle" is smaller.

Layton

[Pies]

4 weeks aint long, wait as long as you can. The cycle is real in marines, not weak or non existant like in freshwater. Patience is more important here.

ALSO. It is possilbe your tank has not cycled at all yet. The cycle requires amonia to start. So if your rock is as clean and good as you say, your tank hasn't had a chance to cycle yet, as nothing has fed the cycle. Rotten fish or crab mean is a common starter, some peopke add Amonia (Andy Hipkiss / Eric Borunemans forum have info). So all is not rosey.

Feel free to add corals now though. Find a reef club and get some cheap / free leathers, any sort will do, mushrooms, toadstools whatever you can find thats cheap. This will keep you entertained and make waiting easier. Star polyps, pulse Xenia etc are all good starters too.

Add some snails or hermits too.

Add 1 or 2 clowns, then W A I T. Test your water often. Be ready to change out any Amonia spikes or Nitrite spikes and sit back. The clowns will be find without an Anemone, so leave it for now. Maybee never add one, but if so don't throw one in yet.

Thats it. 70kg is a lot of rock, you will be fine, don't feel you need lots more.

Mandarins are great, wait as long as you can. I waited about 6 months for mine and its doing great. I do have a feeder refugium though.

Good luck and a wish you the best. Marine keeping is a great hobby and its lots of fun. Look foward to seeing some photos.

Also supply some more info. Tank size, amount of rock, water paramaters, circulation, sump?, heater?, temp, skimmer? (what sort?), Refugium (size and type), DSB?, lighting type and photo period, chemical filteration?, physical filteration?

See ya

[JackJackJack]

ok, sounds like a fairly good idea. yes i can get a regular supply of frozen or live brine shrimp, which would be better, live im guessing. will add the clowns first as it is at the moment, as it will be a few months or more (probably alot more) until the shop i go to will have bangai's in and i'd rather stick with this store as they have been extremely helpful and so far everyone i talk to has praised their fish-stock.

and there is a definate bio-load in the tank, recieved alot of 'hitch-hikers in the rock. 3 brittle stars, about 10 hermits, uncountable amounts of smaller snails and 3 or 4 larger snails, a decorator crab, a hermit crab and im sure theres more i havent seen, i know these wouldnt be creating huge amounts, but i have been testing almost daily, and there were large amounts of ammonia in the first few days, and it did appear to cycle. i will leave it for the 6 weeks, as ive waited this long( tank has been 'under construction' for about 3 months now) im sure i can wait 2 or 3 more weeks!

circulation is rather weak, on my last calculation tank turned over 4 times an hour, but i will be recieving a 4000l/hr pump in the next few days (was meant to arrive today) which will boost it a bit. at the moment there is no random current, which is a project im looking into. heating is 2x200w heaters. lighting is said above and MH is on for 10 hours rest are on for 12. no refugium as tank wasnt drilled. looking into setting up an above tank refugium in the next few weeks with a 2' glass tank. skimmer isnt great, i got it from the same guy that the rock came from, it is a weipro sa-2014 ( i believe they sell them on aquaria.com.au) and is powered by a 4000l/hr pump, is producing a dark skimmate though, its rated for 150 gallon aquariums. this will be upgraded within the next few months, but seems to be doing the job for now. (although it did run a tank of the same size, that looked extremely healthy for a year or so). i use NSW, and due to having to drive past my chosen collection point to get to and from work, weekly waterchanges will be no problem. no DSB, i went with a half inch layer of sand across the tank, and have more that can be added if advised too, although i have heard this is not a good idea.

wow, long post.

thanks again.

jack

will have those pics uploaded tomorow hopefully!

[lduncan]

Personally i'm not a fan of DSB's, well not in a dispaly tank, a speciallized sump maybe. What's your temperature at? I have had problems in the past keeping my temp stable with big lights, I had to rig up up diy chiller to keep my temp fluctuation to under 2 degrees, until I get something more permanent. But with a 400W halide on a 5 foot tank, with added waste heat from pumps in aus, I suspect the tank temp may rise quite high? But then a/c is common in aus (unlike in NZ), so that mey help.

As far as food goes, I much prefer mysis over brine shrimp, but if all you have access to is live brine i'm sure your bangai's (whenever you get them) will go nuts over them. I got my bangai's to eat initially by feeding them newly hatched brine shrimp.

Layton

[Pies]

I think DSBs are best left to the experts, but more of an option in .au than herein NZ (access to dsb cirtter kits).

Main display tank is the best place for the DSB, as its the largest surface area. They can also look much better then just sand coating by providing a real 3d environment, other than the 'perfect flat' sand bed. The ocean is not dead flat.

Requires a little more thought before you start though as will want to hide some of the substrate too, this makes it looks more natural.

Next time I setup I would like to use an in-tank DSB. I will see how the remote one goes first though. Another problem is if you are going to use STREAM pumps. The sheer volume of water flow from these pumps may make a DSB impractical in all but the largest tanks and I suspect I would not ever want a tank much bigger than the one I have now. OK thats a lie, my next tank will be 'slightly' larger (1600 x 1600 L-Shape 800 front to back, 800 high). Just go to decide were. I do have 3 spare rooms...

Bangaii will eat anything, as will the clowns. Feed frozen brine, live brine if you can get it, frozen mysis, live mysis, flake, planton, dried plankton etc etc. Vary the diet, you will be sweet. Feeding is the easy bit

Pies

[JackJackJack]

tank temp sits at a steady 27, although we havent had any real stinkers yet, which im worried about. i cool it down by using 3 fans, one that is aimed at the air between the light and the water surface, and another 2 aimed at the water surface itself. creates alot of evaporation which cools the water rather fast. have aquired a small bar fridge that i intend to use as a DIY chiller, just need a full weekend from work. there is alot of evaporation, which was a problem with changing SG and the such, but just set up an auto top-up system with a float valve. i was surprised at the amount that evaporated now that i can measure it accurately using the water resevoir, about 9L a day or so, lets me dose more kalk though i guess. waiting on the arrival of my test kits this week, interested to know what my calcium and alkalinity is. the room has an airconditioner (just an old crappy one that hangs in the window) that is timed to come on 11-1.30. and have not seen more than a 1 degree difference yet. that was my major concern, but i suspect i might need to get that diy chiller in for hot days.

i was told the same thing, that DSB's work well, if you know what your doing. so that will wait until the next tank (and we all know theres always a 'next tank')

[JackJackJack]

also note, the temp is easier to keep steady as i have an open top and use the pendant type hang down lighting and also hang my fluoros from the roof. without the closed top it is alot easier to keep cool.